Surprise, surprise, Model 3 is highest rated vehicle on Consumer Reports

[101101]

This is wonderful news. And despite many very deserved criticisms of CR and Lovedays insistence when posting it here of trying to conflate 'reliability' as if instead of being much more reliable than any ICE which is the reality of Model 3 some claimed trivial flaw would be real and lead to a stranding on the side of the road. But moving right along... Now it seems Tesla has been dominant at the top of CR in recent years.

What is happening right now is so exciting.

1. ICE vehicles have went way up in price from 22K average selling price to 35K now and soon to be more because the EV tipping point has arrived where we've reached peak ICE and this will cause the elevation of the average selling price in the state helping Tesla on the way down to its 35K goal making it less than the average selling price.

2. China as the largest auto-market in the world has banned further ICE capacity expansion and at the same time with 500 EV producers will have enough domestic EV capacity this year to replace essentially its full domestic market of 20 plus million vehicles a year. Further China is growing at a rate that by 2025 it should eclipse the US economy to become the number one economic power in the world.

3. By 2025 we ought to have the perfect battery solution. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/0...elivers-ultra-fast-charging-zero-degradation/ This C-ion or solid state Carbon Ion tech which is in its 4th generation and in mass production in China, coming from Oxford University and is a combination of carbon nano tubes and ultra caps and some super conductance tech- presumably some q-dot type stuff akin to what StoreDot is working with, is the best I've ever heard of (in terms of marketing claims) in that the charging is apparently instant (35 seconds for an EV,_ its not chemistry based (per newer marketing) so it doesn't wear down or degrade, can't catch fire, is very cold resistant, clearly doesn't get hot, apparently doesn't need cooling- better than lithium ion by 1-2 orders of magnitude along all parameters, is super cheap and light- 30 year life cycle unlimited cycles no degradation, great energy density and no lithium or cobalt or rare earth cost- making it out of coconut shell derived carbon- should enable full EV aviation. Right now its great for stationary things like batteries on site at EV charging stations radically lowering the cost of the energy they use because it eliminates demand surges also good for green duck curve amelioration. By its 5-6 generations out before 2025 it will be fit for EVs and be in production in EVs by then- per the company. It production process works with current lithium batter manufacturing plants and tech no retrofit or retooling or real capex expenditure to snap it in. This is an example o the claimed everything battery tech we've been looking for, its apparently way beyond solid state lithium and apparently well funded. Could be wrong but the way battery tech looks its like were in the middle of 1080p anticipating 4K and just waiting for the tech to hit final manufacturing quality- if not these guys then another group and there are many!.

4. I do believe Tesla is on the edge of a real break through with self driving. Right now they are about fully recovered from the bs that happened to disrupt the Mobile Eye partnership and I do think they are ahead of all others even ahead of Waymo. When AP3 hits in a month or two Model 3 will really be the best value for the money bar none- I noticed that CR scored Model 3 a 92 and if I am not mistaken (and I could be because I couldn't make it out) Camry or Corolla or both were down in the low 50s- imagine that.
I am saying that the price point will move up for volume demand watch!!!

So again the demand problem is with BMW (it hit peak ICE first, others are hitting it this year) not Tesla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[davidtm]

I agree that autonomous vehicles have made significant strides on an individual basis. The biggest challenge will be management of those vehicles in the larger population of all vehicles, especially that transition period between vehicles with current lack of autonomy and all (or most) vehicles being autonomous.

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

This is wonderful news. And despite many very deserved criticisms of CR and Lovedays insistence when posting it here of trying to conflate 'reliability' as if instead of being much more reliable than any ICE which is the reality of Model 3 some claimed trivial flaw would be real and lead to a stranding on the side of the road. But moving right along... Now it seems Tesla has been dominant at the top of CR in recent years.

What is happening right now is so exciting.

1. ICE vehicles have went way up in price from 22K average selling price to 35K now and soon to be more because the EV tipping point has arrived where we've reached peak ICE and this will cause the elevation of the average selling price in the state helping Tesla on the way down to its 35K goal making it less than the average selling price.

2. China as the largest auto-market in the world has banned further ICE capacity expansion and at the same time with 500 EV producers will have enough domestic EV capacity this year to replace essentially its full domestic market of 20 plus million vehicles a year. Further China is growing at a rate that by 2025 it should eclipse the US economy to become the number one economic power in the world.

3. By 2025 we ought to have the perfect battery solution. https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/0...elivers-ultra-fast-charging-zero-degradation/ This C-ion or solid state Carbon Ion tech which is in its 4th generation and in mass production in China, coming from Oxford University and is a combination of carbon nano tubes and ultra caps and some super conductance tech- presumably some q-dot type stuff akin to what StoreDot is working with, is the best I've ever heard of (in terms of marketing claims) in that the charging is apparently instant (35 seconds for an EV,_ its not chemistry based (per newer marketing) so it doesn't wear down or degrade, can't catch fire, is very cold resistant, clearly doesn't get hot, apparently doesn't need cooling- better than lithium ion by 1-2 orders of magnitude along all parameters, is super cheap and light- 30 year life cycle unlimited cycles no degradation, great energy density and no lithium or cobalt or rare earth cost- making it out of coconut shell derived carbon- should enable full EV aviation. Right now its great for stationary things like batteries on site at EV charging stations radically lowering the cost of the energy they use because it eliminates demand surges also good for green duck curve amelioration. By its 5-6 generations out before 2025 it will be fit for EVs and be in production in EVs by then- per the company. It production process works with current lithium batter manufacturing plants and tech no retrofit or retooling or real capex expenditure to snap it in. This is an example o the claimed everything battery tech we've been looking for, its apparently way beyond solid state lithium and apparently well funded. Could be wrong but the way battery tech looks its like were in the middle of 1080p anticipating 4K and just waiting for the tech to hit final manufacturing quality- if not these guys then another group and there are many!.

4. I do believe Tesla is on the edge of a real break through with self driving. Right now they are about fully recovered from the bs that happened to disrupt the Mobile Eye partnership and I do think they are ahead of all others even ahead of Waymo. When AP3 hits in a month or two Model 3 will really be the best value for the money bar none- I noticed that CR scored Model 3 a 92 and if I am not mistaken (and I could be because I couldn't make it out) Camry or Corolla or both were down in the low 50s- imagine that.
I am saying that the price point will move up for volume demand watch!!!

So again the demand problem is with BMW (it hit peak ICE first, others are hitting it this year) not Tesla!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just checked CR and the Model 3 and S are definitely not the highest rated cars. The Model S has predicted below average reliability- the Model 3 has average reliability. If you are speaking of road ratings (drivability) then the Telsa Model S may be up there. The Model 3 is a Recommended buy. None of this is not to say kinks and issues won't be worked out...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[Lowell_Greenberg]

I just checked CR and the Model 3 and S are definitely not the highest rated cars. The Model S has predicted below average reliability- the Model 3 has average reliability. If you are speaking of road ratings (drivability) then the Telsa Model S may be up there. The Model 3 is a Recommended buy. None of this is not to say kinks and issues won't be worked out...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

However:

https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3-tops-consumer-reports-most-satisfying-1832363374

Consumers rate it as their favorite...

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

 

[101101]

But their reliability ratings are absolute BS because every Tesla is much less likely to strand you or not start run than any ICE machine.
This is simple fact. So when CR tries to say well door handle isn't perfect- sorry that's not a reliability issue. Reliability is when its going to strand you or make you late. So because CR inherently and apparently intentionally lies by attempting to transparently conflate on this crucial measure we get BS like this. So lets correct that, in terms of real reliability and the Tesla's have much higher reliability than ICE cars from any make. I saw somewhere where someone tried to assert (oh damn it was Munro) Chevy Bolt reliability- again that parts bin no frunk Bolt will simply not be as actually reliable as a Tesla.

 

[bwilson4web]

I am no fan of Consumer Reports but incompetence is more accurate than calling them liars:

• Their home delivery subscription does not include the summary volumes found on news stands. It is cheaper to buy the summaries and get what you want to read. The home subscription is too thin and the online subscription too expensive.
• Consumer Reports city mileage is still broken but having passed through three editors and editorial boards, their reports are more accurate. Adding highway mileage fixed a lot of problems.

Bob Wilson

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

However:
<snippage>
Consumers rate it as their favorite...

Yup, Consumer Reports' latest customer satisfaction survey has the Tesla Model 3 in first place, displacing former #1 Tesla Model S, which held the spot for several years in a row.

In the past, InsideEVs news reports have taken care in the headline to specify either "reliability ratings" or "customer satisfaction ratings" from Consumer Reports. Those are two very different things! Too bad the headline of the latest IEVs news report blurs that distinction.

"I really love my car and absolutely I would buy it again, given the choice" is very different from "My car is very reliable and has never needed to be taken in for any service other than regularly scheduled maintenance."

I find it rather bizarre that for CR, the one lone factor of reliability trumps not only every other factor, but all other factors put together! Personally, I think how much one enjoys driving a car, and how convenient and useful it is, how comfortable it is to sit in and use, how easy the controls are to operate, and how many luxury touches it has... these are all just as important, or almost as important, as how reliable the car is. Of course, a lot of that is very subjective, and can't be objectively rated by a consumer advocacy magazine which rates products and services.

I am no fan of Consumer Reports but incompetence is more accurate than calling them liars

I agree. I find CR's ratings of Tesla cars to be erratic and apparently somewhat arbitrary, but I don't think that's because of any bias; it's probably because they don't have enough staff properly trained in how to rate cars on a consistent basis. In my opinion, CR should stick to rating such things as washing machines, staplers, and rubber gloves, and leave rating automobiles to the experts at Edmunds.com.

The knowledge shown about different products at CR is broad but not deep. I've noticed the same problem with their ratings on home theatre equipment. CR is good at rating sound systems for reliability, but hopeless when it comes to rating for sound fidelity, dynamic range, and the like. Complex specialized products, such as automobiles and high-end home theatre equipment, requires specialized knowledge and experience in order to rate them properly.

 

[interestedinEV]

Having been involved with "Quality Management" for years, quality can be measured in so many different ways, there is no universal definition. At the lowest level quality is conformance to specifications, at different level, quality is the ability to satisfy an experiential need. Door handles falling off is an example of quality. If the specifications state door handles can fall off, then I would consider the product as not meeting a need. If the specifications call for door handles staying on and they keep falling off, it is not meeting the quality standards.

In the bigger scheme of things if door handles falling off is the only "conformance to specification" problem, then does it really matter much? No, it does not. If there are several other things including safety issues etc., it may be a major problem. And let us face it, even Toyota's and Lexus come with some initial problems, as I have personally experienced. That is why one of the measures is the type and number of quality issues in the first 30-60-90 days of ownership. By that measure, especially when there was a drive (pun intended) to get Tesla's out of the door, there were a fair amount of initial quality problems, they were quality issues and I can see CR coming with an average rating, as many cars had initial quality problems.

Now if you measure quality in larger way as "providing value and satisfying a need", Tesla's obviously do that very well, especially for a segment of the population. Those quality metrics are harder to measure and are often very specific to a context. For example, I bought a chair on Amazon over the holidays, it was inexpensive, it met the need I had in mind and there were no misrepresentations. I consider it as a high quality product. Some reviewers thought it was of poor quality as it was not comfortable compared to a chair that cost more than 3 times as much and I am sure they were right.

Putting on my quality management hat, Tesla is both a high quality product and also a moderate quality product, depending upon the context and the measurement criteria. From a value perspective, it provides better "quality" than many other cars and can be considered "high" or even the "best". From a "conformance to specifications" it may be moderate. CR does not measure things that may matter to a segment of the population or measure it partially, and hence in respect to that segment their measures are wrong. If total cost of ownership is quality factor, Tesla should be very high up there as there are less moving parts that could break down. If door handles falling is a factor, then Tesla is at the bottom. So how do you trade off "total cost of ownership" vs "door handles falling off". So what is the weight that you give to one over the other. Unfortunately in many cases it is the perception of the consumer, some would put more weight on one than the other. If I am buying a car and want to trade it in at the end of three years, I do not care for the costs in the 4th year.

So let us not bash CR, but understand what they are measuring and agree to disagree on certain things. And if someone takes CR at face value, without doing their research, so be it.

 

[marshall]

If I'm reading the Consumer Reports car rating guide correctly, these cars seem highly reliable over 9 years. On average, only 2% the cars surveyed by model year ever have a major engine problem and 1% a major transmission issue.

I think that's what seems to get folks panties all tied up in knot when Consumer Reports gives their favorite brand a red rating, and why dealers love to sell extended warranties.

If my understanding is correct, then how well folks like driving their car is the determining factor.

 

[interestedinEV]

Yup, Consumer Reports' latest customer satisfaction survey has the Tesla Model 3 in first place, displacing former #1 Tesla Model S, which held the spot for several years in a row.
......

The knowledge shown about different products at CR is broad but not deep. I've noticed the same problem with their ratings on home theatre equipment. CR is good at rating sound systems for reliability, but hopeless when it comes to rating for sound fidelity, dynamic range, and the like. Complex specialized products, such as automobiles and high-end home theatre equipment, requires specialized knowledge and experience in order to rate them properly.

Exactly. It is easy to measure reliability. You put it on a test bed, simulate putting on and off a 100,000 times and see if it fails before the end of the cycle (I am sure they can check for a few other things). Measuring fidelity is much harder and often needs a trained expert, not a robot that can do things mechanically. So when Car and Driver has one of their experts look at handling around steep curves, we have to rely on the judgement of an expert, not an impersonal robot. That is where quality measurements may not directly measure subtle factors that may matter to some users.

 

[interestedinEV]

...If my understanding is correct, then how well folks like driving their car is the determining factor.

Yes, there is the mechanical measurement and measurement factoring usage and usage conditions. Most quality measurement do not adjust for the how people will use their cars and that is why the famous catch phrase "your mileage will vary"