Price gouging? Here's who should know...

Ride_Da_Lightning said:
$10k over is nothing. In Florida quotes have been anywhere from $3-$20k over. Avoid Phil Smith Kia in Lighthouse Point, FL unless you enjoy or your goal is to be raped! As a returning customer, I expected something reasonable that could be negotiated. $16,995/$14,995 markup! We are living in bizarro world and I just fail to understand or be apart of it. The first quote below is for 1st Edition & the second for a GT-Line RWD.

I don’t want a Tesla for a variety of reasons but, Kia dealers are certainly making me rethink that position.
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Although I can imagine reasons why an EV buyer would not want a Tesla, I find it hard to think of a good one (reason, that is) after looking at this thread. Of course, I'm shocked, shocked, shocked at the dealer markups and failure to honor contracts, but at some point -- maybe at the beginning -- one has to look at the value proposition.

FWIW, I nearly bought a Nissan Leaf, in 2019, until I realized that a fully tricked-out one would cost more net (after taxes, rebates, depreciation) than a Model 3. If the Tesla had cost twice as much, I would have bought two Nissans (or Konas... whatever). But that wasn't the case, and I have no regrets. That basic Model 3 is still trouble-free and a lot of fun to drive, and I wouldn't bother with anything but the basic version, although YMMV.

I took delivery last month of the Model Y I ordered last August. Let's be honest: even though it's objectively faster and has a longer range and is quieter (wind and road noise), it's not as much fun to drive as the Model 3 (which my wife allows me to look at and, sometimes, to wash).

The price of the Model Y from Tesla, where there's no negotiating possible and no dealer add-ons or other markup, was $56,290, including $1,000 for white upholstery and $1,200 for destination and documentation fees. There are small incentives remaining in California, but if the clean air provisions of the old BBB act are passed, there might be an additional $7,500. Even without it, though, the value proposition is very strong and, as of last month, Tesla offered 6-year financing at 2.49%.

Did I mention resale value?

My only gripe is that I'd rather have a smaller (especially: narrower) car for city parking. Maybe the Model 2 in a few years.
 
Well, everyone can have their own opinion on which EV they like the best (with price likely being one of many aspects being considered).
 
GringoViejo said:
I took delivery last month of the Model Y I ordered last August. Let's be honest: even though it's objectively faster and has a longer range and is quieter (wind and road noise), it's not as much fun to drive as the Model 3 (which my wife allows me to look at and, sometimes, to wash).

My only gripe is that I'd rather have a smaller (especially: narrower) car for city parking. Maybe the Model 2 in a few years.
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I love my small, agile, quick (although not Tesla quick) MINI Cooper SE. If you're looking for a fun EV, there is no competition. The Chinese version coming for 2024 will probably offer more range, if 114 EPA miles (130-140 miles for some owners) isn't enough (thanks to COVID, I rarely require more than my Honda Clarity PHEV's 47-mile EV range).
 
Mark W said:
Simple issue. If people are willing to pay absurd markups to dealers to be one of the first ones to get a car, then it's on them. The dealers may be able to play this game for a short period of time, but it won't last. Same happened with the Ioniq 5. Tons of stories of 10k markups, but now you hear plenty of people finding cars from dealers with no markup or only a very small one. Just wait them out. If Kia wants to sell a lot of EV6s the supply will eventually be great enough where the markups will be gone. Anybody who pays $10,000 over sticker for a car that will depreciate rapidly is crazy. Once they are selling at MSRP, that car that you paid 10K over sticker for will be worth sticker - $7,500, and dropping rapidly.
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Actually, it is the same situation for Hyundai Inoniq 5 buyers. If you look at the Ioniq 5 forums you will see hundreds of complaints about Additional Dealer Markup pricing. They even made a list of dealers and markups nationwide. As an example, of the dozens of dealers in the state of California, only 2 will sell at MSRP and of course, they have limited stock as their cars sell as soon as they get off the truck. One dealer lists it on his website - $20,000 "market adjustment".
 
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GringoViejo said:
Although I can imagine reasons why an EV buyer would not want a Tesla, I find it hard to think of a good one (reason, that is) after looking at this thread. Of course, I'm shocked, shocked, shocked at the dealer markups and failure to honor contracts, but at some point -- maybe at the beginning -- one has to look at the value proposition.

FWIW, I nearly bought a Nissan Leaf, in 2019, until I realized that a fully tricked-out one would cost more net (after taxes, rebates, depreciation) than a Model 3. If the Tesla had cost twice as much, I would have bought two Nissans (or Konas... whatever). But that wasn't the case, and I have no regrets. That basic Model 3 is still trouble-free and a lot of fun to drive, and I wouldn't bother with anything but the basic version, although YMMV.

I took delivery last month of the Model Y I ordered last August. Let's be honest: even though it's objectively faster and has a longer range and is quieter (wind and road noise), it's not as much fun to drive as the Model 3 (which my wife allows me to look at and, sometimes, to wash).

The price of the Model Y from Tesla, where there's no negotiating possible and no dealer add-ons or other markup, was $56,290, including $1,000 for white upholstery and $1,200 for destination and documentation fees. There are small incentives remaining in California, but if the clean air provisions of the old BBB act are passed, there might be an additional $7,500. Even without it, though, the value proposition is very strong and, as of last month, Tesla offered 6-year financing at 2.49%.

Did I mention resale value?

My only gripe is that I'd rather have a smaller (especially: narrower) car for city parking. Maybe the Model 2 in a few years.
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Forgetting the fact that I would like a Tesla Model Y very much…here are my top reasons for not ordering/getting one. Most will discount my reasons as being silly; however, for me, these items will constantly gnaw at me no matter how fast the car is and for the life of me cannot understand why some of these items, especially, #1 & 2, are missing from the Model 3 & Y.
  1. SiriusXM Satellite Radio (Bluetooth via the phone app, IS NOT A SOLUTION) If not hardware based then it should be app based and use the internet connection like it does for Spotify etc.
  2. No Ventilated Seats. (Essential in Florida especially, since the glass roof has no retractable shade)
  3. Glass (Panoramic) Roof luv it…but, no retractable shade. Give me #2 and it becomes less of an issue (part of the reason the IONIQ 5 Limited with the vision roof & retractable shade appeals more to me than the EV6 wide sunroof)
  4. No Apple CarPlay (is it absolutely necessary…no but, c’mon)
I have a few other minor things but, #1 & 2 keep me from pulling the trigger.
 
I test rode an EV6 yesterday and asked for a quote afterwards. Autotrader listed this car as $53K but the quote was for $69K. At the minimum the dealer is guilty of false advertising.

This was the third dealer I went to yesterday. The allotments of all the other dealers where gone. For the first dealer I went to, the car sold while I was on the drive over there.

When I got the $69K quote I said goodbye and walked out. The sales manager came running after me in the parking lot asking me what I didn’t like about the quote. I told him for starters the quote was more than $15K above MSRP.

He said, “But look I’m giving you a $4K credit and I’m giving you top dollar on your trade in”. Since this was a lease quote I asked him where was the $7,500 federal tax credit. He said that you only get the federal tax credit if you buy the car.

Since I had already leased two EVs previously, I new this was a bold face lie and at this point I was starting to lose my composure. I told the sales manager to, “Get away from me”, and he backed off. He called later and left a message stating that he was willing to work the deal, something I now have no interest in doing.

I got a $9,100 credit below MSRP on my Niro EV. I was expecting a similar deal on an EV6. I hadn’t seen this thread previously so I didn’t know dealers markups were through the roof. But still, the dealer’s bait and switch was unconscionable.

This dealer was a 40 mile drive away and I had to fight a real bad traffic jam to get there. I don’t believe I would have even tried to get to that dealership if I had known what kind markup they were adding. I am glad a got a close look at EV6 though.

I guess the dealer actually did me a favor. I’m not really ready to make the plunge and I’m not sure I could have contained myself if I hadn’t got such a horrible deal. I really want something more like the EV9 and maybe this is just the world telling me to wait.


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Texas Niro EV said:
Since this was a lease quote I asked him where was the $7,500 federal tax credit. He said that you only get the federal tax credit if you buy the car.
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The $7,500 federal EV tax credit is a tax credit. You claim it on your end-of-year taxes and if you owed $7,500 or more for that year's taxes, you are credited $7,500 that you don't have to fork over. If you didn't buy the car, you cannot claim the tax credit.

Perhaps for other EVs you've leased the dealer took $7,500 off the total lease payments to make the sale? Dealers aren't yet discounting EV6s to make the sale. Perhaps if supply ever catches up with demand they will be more eager to bargain. If they won't tell you the price over the phone, you can expect them to have added markups and non-optional, expensive add-ons they'll reveal after you take the time to drive there.
 
insightman said:
The $7,500 federal EV tax credit is a tax credit. You claim it on your end-of-year taxes and if you owed $7,500 or more for that year's taxes, you are credited $7,500 that you don't have to fork over. If you didn't buy the car, you cannot claim the tax credit.

Perhaps for other EVs you've leased the dealer took $7,500 off the total lease payments to make the sale? Dealers aren't yet discounting EV6s to make the sale. Perhaps if supply ever catches up with demand they will be more eager to bargain. If they won't tell you the price over the phone, you can expect them to have added markups and non-optional, expensive add-ons they'll reveal after you take the time to drive there.
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The finance company gets the $7,500 tax credit on a lease and, if they don’t pass it on to the leasee, that’s another $7,500 mark up on the car. Anyone that doesn’t demand the a $7,500 credit on a lease is either desperate or a fool.


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Texas Niro EV said:
The finance company gets the $7,500 tax credit on a lease and, if they don’t pass it on to the leasee, that’s another $7,500 mark up on the car. Anyone that doesn’t demand the a $7,500 credit on a lease is either desperate or a fool.


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So yes, your leasing company took the $7,500 off the lease to make the sale--and you didn't have to wait to file your taxes--or owe more than $7,500 in taxes--to get the benefit. Again, we're back to the supply and demand equation and right now EV6 dealers can call the shots when it comes to what you have to pay.
 
Texas Niro EV said:
The finance company gets the $7,500 tax credit on a lease and, if they don’t pass it on to the leasee, that’s another $7,500 mark up on the car. Anyone that doesn’t demand the a $7,500 credit on a lease is either desperate or a fool.


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The current KIA incentives offered to lease Niro EVs exceed $10,000 in "lease cash" that effectively reduces the residual value, and lowers monthly payments.

Once the flurry of "1st edition buyers" passes, I would anticipate similar incentives on the ID5 and EV6 through KMFUSA.

The caveat is that any ADM transfers those incentives to the dealer.
https://www.edmunds.com/kia/niro-ev/2022/deals/
 
Sorry for the rant.

Kia Napoli in Milford, CT have one sitting outside in low teens since arrival and asking price is 80k!

Sales guy told me go get a Tesla when I complains about the 30k mark up.

I wrote to my rep in my state asking the ability to have direct sales from manufacturers.

These dealers are digging their own graves.


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Clifford C said:
Marty ..... no way am I willing to give Dan O'Brien KIA an extra $10,000 over MSRP ..... they are just the "delivery boy". I reserved the car from KIA and my deal was with KIA. How KIA corporate can allow this is mind boggling ............... I have sent the below to KIA Complaints and news organizations .......... I wish there was more I could do ..........

KIA is airing a super bowl ad featuring "robo-dog" and the new KIA flagship EV..... the model EV6. KIA's highly anticipated USA rollout of the new model EV6 is about to be severely tainted by the greed of some of its KIA dealerships.
In June of 2021, with a deposit payment of $100.00, I reserved a KIA EV6 at KIA's estimated retail full price (MSRP) of $58,500. At the time I reserved MY new EV6 from KIA, I chose the Dan O'Brien Kia of North Hampton NH dealership as my "Delivery Dealer." O'Brien's role was to receive MY CAR from KIA, prep MY CAR for delivery and arrange for payment/financing. Delivery was slated for early 2022 with the "scuttlebutt" being that cars would start being delivered to the 1500 reservation holders just in time for the super bowl and it's KIA "robo-dog" super bowl advertisement.
Only 1500 reservations were taken for the new EV6 in the USA and those of us "lucky" enough to get a reservation were ecstatic. I was psyched!
I received a call from my "delivery dealer" on Feb 9th 2022. MY new EV6 is ready for pick-up! Final KIA sticker price is $59,945 slightly higher than the $58,500 estimate provided by KIA in June .... no big deal.
Before I continue, I want to emphasize that my reservation is with the manufacturer KIA.... not with the dealer whose only contribution is to hand me the car and take my payment... the dealer was not involved in the ordering of the car, or the reservation process. In essence, the dealer is the "delivery boy."
In preparation for payment, the delivery dealer, O'Brien, sent me an invoice with a base "price" of $69,945, $10,000 higher than the KIA retail sticker price shown on window of the car.
Let me state this one more time .... KIA's retail price (MSRP) $59,945. O'Brien's price to me, to hand me MY CAR is $69,945.
Yes ... $10,000.00 higher than the KIA retail price. O'Brien's explanation is "too bad... it's what we can get for the car".
But ... it's not O'Brien's car, it's MY car. I reserved and ordered the car directly through KIA ... O'Brien is the "delivery boy."
In essence, my "delivery boy" is ransoming MY CAR BACK TO ME AT A COST OF $10,000.00.
The KIA forums show this disgusting practice is happening regularly around the country as unscrupulous dealers institute wildly unreasonable markups. In my case the $10,000 surcharge is being imposed by a dealer that did not even order the car. If it was not for my selection of the O'Brien dealership to take delivery of MY EV6, O'Brien would never have even seen the car.
KIA corporate needs to stop this price gouging immediately.
Instead of having 1500 wildly enthusiastic new owners bragging about their brand new EV6, KIA is about to have a large group of seriously upset people who believe they have been cheated out of their new EV6. How can this be good for anyone .... even for the dealers with the $10,000 unwarranted markup, it is short sighted beyond belief.
The super bowl ad won't be positively received by me or my fellow consumers who in good faith reserved an EV6 with KIA only to have it stolen by greedy dealers. Is this ridiculous price gouging what has become of us? In fact, watching the super bowl ad just spurs me on even more to making the dealership price gouging more visible to the public, and I intend to do just that.
I hope you run/air this story as it is not only KIA dealers, but also other manufacturers dealers (i.e. Ford that are instituting what they like to call "market adjustments" to their retail pricing.
As Forbes.com states "Many dealerships are charging “market adjustment,” a euphemism for an amount above sticker price, also known as price gouging.
See the "robo-dog" KIA super bowl ad at ... it's a great advertisement.
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As far as I know Kia do not own their dealers in the US therefore I suspect as elsewhere your contract is with the dealer and not Kia. Check the terms of the contract. The Kia reservation agreement is very clear that "Dealer will make an offer to you to purchase or lease a Vehicle. The Selected Dealer will determine the selling or lease price for the Vehicle (as well as the price for any options you may select for the Vehicle), which price may differ from the Manufacturer’s Suggested Retail Price (“MSRP”) for the Vehicle, and the other terms and conditions of the offer to purchase or lease a Vehicle. Please note that MSRP does not include taxes, title, license, destination, options and other dealer fees and charges." Therefore Kia US take no responsibility for the price the dealer charges
 
laptop said:
Sales guy told me go get a Tesla when I complains about the 30k mark up.

I wrote to my rep in my state asking the ability to have direct sales from manufacturers.

These dealers are digging their own graves.
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Thirty thousand dollars on a $50K vehicle is a new and very impressive record dealer markup on the EV6 AFAIK. Percentage-wise that even beats out the dealer who is marking up the $102K Mercedes EQS by $50K. I'm sure Kia wants to build enough EV6s to catch up with demand, but producing EVs is tough in these days of supply-chain failures.

Dealers employ lobbyists who "persuade" state legislators to tailor local laws to benefit the dealers. That's their strategy to stay above ground--if not above board. Michigan laws prevent factory-direct sales of vehicles to consumers. Listening to the legislators who created these laws try to explain their benefit to consumers makes one laugh.
 
insightman said:
Thirty thousand dollars on a $50K vehicle is a new and very impressive record dealer markup on the EV6 AFAIK. Percentage-wise that even beats out the dealer who is marking up the $102K Mercedes EQS by $50K. I'm sure Kia wants to build enough EV6s to catch up with demand, but producing EVs is tough in these days of supply-chain failures.

Dealers employ lobbyists who "persuade" state legislators to tailor local laws to benefit the dealers. That's their strategy to stay above ground--if not above board. Michigan laws prevent factory-direct sales of vehicles to consumers. Listening to the legislators who created these laws try to explain their benefit to consumers makes one laugh.
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I hope people realize that we are getting abused and tell the politicians to stop this madness.

These dealers are inflating the inflation even more.


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Texas Niro EV said:
The finance company gets the $7,500 tax credit on a lease and, if they don’t pass it on to the leasee, that’s another $7,500 mark up on the car. Anyone that doesn’t demand the a $7,500 credit on a lease is either desperate or a fool.


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Exactly. Getting the $7,500 credit on a lease for a qualifying vehicle is routine, and if the dealer isn't giving it to you, you're being gouged.
 
Jim Matthews said:
My beef is that these dealerships … are insulated *from* competition by franchise protection law that prevent market forces from working both ways.
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It is ridiculous how dealers are protected by state laws. On the books for decades and strong lobbys. Their advantage is why they are very much perturbed by direct to customer sales models like Tesla which will destroy their business model if adopted across the industry .

It is time to lobby state legislatures to make a change, or force it from the federal level. The rationales of the 1930s and 50s when three manufacturers dominated franchisee options (and even then according to the FTC provided benefit to consumers) are not valid anymore. It was really successful state legislative lobbying the built the current consumer-predatory market model . It is time to kick those laws to the curb.


https://repository.law.umich.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2720&context=articles
 
laptop said:
I hope people realize that we are getting abused and tell the politicians to stop this madness.

These dealers are inflating the inflation even more.


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And how are politicians supposed to do this? Your country believes in the free market even in life or death health situations so merely overcharging on a non essential like a car seems not to be a major concern.
 
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