Once again Chevy Bolts hogging chargers

[SouthernDude]

I disagree, they should charge at whatever DCFC is most convenient. Most DCFC chargers rarely charge at their advertised rate anyway.

I wonder if that is either an equipment issue or if there is some kind of demand response happening at certain times of the day. You see people on plug share at certain stations get all sorts of charging speeds for cars that charge at similar rates. When you switch to an EV, there is a tradeoff - especially for the short term - that DC charging stops will take longer than ICE fueling stops, but there should be far fewer stops because of home charging, which offsets that potential additional time. If I essentially go from using fueling stations around 40-50 times a year to maybe just 3-4 times a year, then I kind of don't care if it requires me to wait 10-20 min longer. At that point, its so infrequent that it won't really be some major big deal.

 

[Keith Smith]

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We really need legislation that (kind of like federal mpg guidlines) that all new EVs must be able to accept a mininum of 10-150kW ..something like that. For one thing that will prevent GM from reiintroducing the Bolt on 2025/26 with the same charging speedds it has now ..AND prevents Companies from bring to market new micor evs with slow DCFC ..

The problem is that the rate of DCFC installs is NOT and cannot keep pace with all the new EVs coming to market. So the fast speed 150-350kW chargers need to be open for ONLY the vehicles that cna use those speeds .. IMO Humble opinion

I would at this time like to thank all my new Friends and Enemies for participating in my rant

Not just no, but HELL NO. We don't need any more legislation of any kind. Whenever someone says "There oughta be a law . . ." I'm going with there probably should not be a law . . . Now if EVGO or Chargepoint or EA wants to to have some sort of stall restrictions I have no problem, express lanes in stores and such are fine, and I would guess we might see this in the future. Basically what you are saying is that because you were inconvenienced by a couple of vehicles that are not as capable as yours the government should step in and legislate how all of them should be built. Step back and re-consider the NIMBY style attitude. The problem is the over-zealous push by government to shove EV's in the marketplace without infrastructure to support it. Tesla understood this and built out it's own to support their vehicles. Further the problem is not that a bolt only charges at 50KW, the problem is YOU didn't have a place to plug in and charge. I've waited in line at Costco for extended time to get fuel while the dummies in front of me were unable to figure out how to get the nozzle in their car. Maybe find a different place or needle the vendor to add a couple of extra stations.

 

[Keith Smith]

I only look at plugshare and am unaware of how large of a problem this actually is. I would also assume that any errors are due to errors entered into plugshare. I don't drive an EV because I am saving money.

I think moving forward it would be nice for plugshare or similar to network up with all the players, and allow "reservations" based on travel/location. We really need manufacturers to build vehicles that have 2-way comm like Tesla on the port, so you can identify the vehicle if you want to when you plug in to the charger...

Set up your trip in plugshare/waze/maps/whatever... 30 minutes out the app communicates with the target station, as you arrive you are told to go to stall #3, your wait time is 3 minutes, or 0 or whatever. When you plug in charging starts immediately and bills to your account. You could have more stalls than actual chargers, you pull in, plug in, your charge actually starts when the session ends for the other person using the charger. These are not insurmountable issues, they simply require the time to get resolved as the technology matures. It will not happen overnight.

Compare a modern gas station QT/WAWA/SHEETZ/KANGAROO with one from 30 years ago. Stunningly nicer, layed out to push the cars thru. The difference is with an ICE you MUST go to a gas station, most EV owners do the majority of their charging at home, only charging DCFC when on a trip. This means the DCFC charging infrastructure does not have to be as robust as the current fossil fuel based infrastructure, and the most dense around travel corridors. As an EV owner you really should not need to charge at 300KWH unless you are traveling.

 

[R P]

Compare a modern gas station QT/WAWA/SHEETZ/KANGAROO with one from 30 years ago. Stunningly nicer, layed out to push the cars thru. The difference is with an ICE you MUST go to a gas station, most EV owners do the majority of their charging at home, only charging DCFC when on a trip. This means the DCFC charging infrastructure does not have to be as robust as the current fossil fuel based infrastructure, and the most dense around travel corridors. As an EV owner you really should not need to charge at 300KWH unless you are traveling.

That's a very big point, given that 90% of charging is done at home. It will take time to balance out and optimize the number of L3 chargers out there. I just want the price to come down to be closer to what it is at home.

 

[insightman]

I just want the price to come down to be closer to what it is at home.

If the companies operating charging stations were making lots of money with today's charging fees, they'd work harder to keep their charging stations in good repair. The "marginal stability" of CCS charging stations makes me believe they're not making lots of money from today's charging fees.

 

[R P]

If the companies operating charging stations were making lots of money with today's charging fees, they'd work harder to keep their charging stations in good repair. The "marginal stability" of CCS charging stations makes me believe they're not making lots of money from today's charging fees.

Well, they are still working off subsidies they were given to install these, incl from the manufacturers. And there isn't enough volume yet to properly forecast realistic business models. Things are also changing all the time, not just the technology, but how payment is made. Eg Canada is just switching now to kWh rate charging from per min. And many L3s were free before but just now going to pay mode. So all this will affect volumes.

 

[insightman]

Well, they are still working off subsidies they were given to install these, incl from the manufacturers. And there isn't enough volume yet to properly forecast realistic business models. Things are also changing all the time, not just the technology, but how payment is made. Eg Canada is just switching now to kWh rate charging from per min. And many L3s were free before but just now going to pay mode. So all this will affect volumes.

It seems to me that the only incentive that might possibly lower the cost of charging would be larger subsidies that come with restrictions on charging fees.

I'm waiting to see what Costco does. Perhaps they'll prove me wrong and there will be long lines of EV drivers willing to wait longer than it takes to charge to get a cheaper charge.

 

[bwilson4web]

The problem is the cost of engineering and manufacturing these terrible chargers:

• Small production runs - no way to achieve economies of scale. For example, Electrify America started with four vendors and over time reduced them to three or less.
• Unique designs - so each make and model has to go through integration and test . . . by us customers.
• Terrible standards - CCS-1 has an unreliable, breakable, moving part and switch in the handle. Excessive cable and plug sized for 350 kW but used on the 150 kW stations. As for CHAdeMO . . . size, weight, and low charge rates.

The equipment costs 5-10x higher than a Tesla charger and the gap is growing.

Bob Wilson

 

[marshall]

If the companies operating charging stations were making lots of money with today's charging fees, they'd work harder to keep their charging stations in good repair. The "marginal stability" of CCS charging stations makes me believe they're not making lots of money from today's charging fees.

Just look at the stock price of EVgo. They are down over 73% in one year. They are trading at $1.73 at share.

 

[R P]

Well, they are still working off subsidies they were given to install these, incl from the manufacturers. And there isn't enough volume yet to properly forecast realistic business models. Things are also changing all the time, not just the technology, but how payment is made. Eg Canada is just switching now to kWh rate charging from per min. And many L3s were free before but just now going to pay mode. So all this will affect volumes.

I should add that fixed costs should come down as the technology improves. Currently Tesla is the leader with this. But variable costs like the wholesale per kWh has to come down also for these stations, whether it is with increased volumes, or subsidized rates. It isn't going to be good for the EV transition to have ICE cars incl hybrids be cheaper to use on a trip than a pure BEV. I think people are seeing that today in many cases. Some of the new hybrids are incredibly efficient.

 

[marshall]

I should add that fixed costs should come down as the technology improves. Currently Tesla is the leader with this. But variable costs like the wholesale per kWh has to come down also for these stations, whether it is with increased volumes, or subsidized rates. It isn't going to be good for the EV transition to have ICE cars incl hybrids be cheaper to use on a trip than a pure BEV. I think people are seeing that today in many cases. Some of the new hybrids are incredibly efficient.

Unless you are road warrior, the cost of DC charging is not going to be a big issue when road tripping. The main issue with road tripping in an EV is charging availability.

Just a few weeks ago, charging availability was the main issue going to see the eclipse while driving a Chevy Bolt. The cost to charge didn't even come up!

Anyhow, public L2 charging here is cheap at $0.21 kWh USD. Gas is between $4.24 USD and $4.99 USD a gallon. Public charging in BC is also cheap compared to your gas prices.

 

[OneEV]

Basically what you are saying is that because you were inconvenienced by a couple of vehicles that are not as capable as yours the government should step in and legislate how all of them should be built. .

Aas a Previous Bolt owner of more thna 3 years I am saying ..Get them te hell off off of any chargers faster than 50Kw ..It wasnt just me it's tens OF THOUSAND OF OTHER EV DRIVERS that are strugglinmg to find faster chargers and when they do theere will invariably be an UBer driver in a Bolt charging for an hour to 2 hours ... It needs to stop..

Same as wehn ID 4 Owbners were clogging Chargers .charging to 100% because of "free charging".. that was ixed with VW lowering charging time to 30 minutes free. Which I can atest no matter the weather gets you to 80%.

The legislation I am talking about is that All NEW EVs should have a mininum charging rate wheter it is 100-150kW .

a Mininum charging rate will assure that no vehicle can be clogging up any DCFC for more than maybe 45 minutes. I think that is a very very reasonalble solution.

The ONLY reason todays ICE vehicles get 30 mpg plus is because of CAFE (legislation), Auto Industry will never do thiese things on thier own, theyneed to bepushed to make those change .

Legislation is GOOD when done right. No reason to act like laws are un necessary, thats ludicrous. We just need to PARTAKE in those legislations to make sure they are created with common sense.

 

[bwilson4web]

I fully agree with minor edits in bold:

Get them the hell off off of any chargers faster than 50kW

I would add my BMW i3-REx that also has a 50 kW, charging limit. Fortunately, there are a boat load of legacy and a few, local initiative, DC chargers that are in the 50-65 kW range.

For what is worth, the last 1/3d of my 2019 Model 3 charge curve is under 70 kW. So I have no problem with using these relatively low power, CCS-1 chargers.

There is little chance that I'll add a NACS-to-CCS1 adapter to my BMW i3-REx. First, the range extender makes fast DC charging optional. Benchmarks in 2016 showed CCS-1 charging was 2x the cost per mile of gas.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

Unless you are road warrior, the cost of DC charging is not going to be a big issue when road tripping. The main issue with road tripping in an EV is charging availability.

Just a few weeks ago, charging availability was the main issue going to see the eclipse while driving a Chevy Bolt. The cost to charge didn't even come up!

Anyhow, public L2 charging here is cheap at $0.21 kWh USD. Gas is between $4.24 USD and $4.99 USD a gallon. Public charging in BC is also cheap compared to your gas prices.

L2 charging is always cheaper and often free. That's not what I am talking about when I say road tripping. We still have some free L3 chargers here, but they are being phased out and replaced with per kWh chargers ranging from .40 to .80 per kWh. When I last looked at going on a trip down south by EV, it was not that cheap, plus having to deal with charging station deserts. And with cheaper gas in the US makes it even harder to justify using a BEV for tripping. Have to remember the hybrids nowadays can get 50+ mpg.

 

[marshall]

L2 charging is always cheaper and often free. That's not what I am talking about when I say road tripping. We still have some free L3 chargers here, but they are being phased out and replaced with per kWh chargers ranging from .40 to .80 per kWh. When I last looked at going on a trip down south by EV, it was not that cheap, plus having to deal with charging station deserts. And with cheaper gas in the US makes it even harder to justify using a BEV for tripping. Have to remember the hybrids nowadays can get 50+ mpg.

I'm assuming your cost figures are in Canada denominations. Canadian $0.40 is about $0.29 USD. That's cheap energy. Compared to $3.63 USD a gallon gas, $0.29 a kWh is only 6 cents USD more per 25 miles in a Hyundai Ioniq 6 then a Toyota Camry Hybrid.

Frankly, if it costs me a couple hundred dollars more for that occasional road trip, I don't care!

What I care about is the availability of DC charging. If the stations don't exist or are broken, then I'm not going to drive an EV on a road trip.

Heck, even if I were to take a once in a life time road trip to visit all 48 contiguous states, the additional fuel cost still wouldn't be a concern.

 

[R P]

Yes, when in Canada, am using CAD, and USD when in US. You guys gain when you come up here, and we pay more when we go down there. But I agree, for many other reasons, it is better to drive a BEV even if it costs a bit more on some trips. That's why I have two BEVs and no ICE vehicle. However, non EVers don't see it that way, and just another reason not to buy a BEV. I think price charged per kWh should be closer to the wholesale price. I do know gas stations make very little or nothing on what they sell it for. They make it on other stuff in their stores. Somehow the business model for L3 charge stations needs to be improved.

 

[insightman]

Somehow the business model for L3 charge stations needs to be improved.

I assume charging stations will get more reliable as the vendors of bad ones fall by the wayside. However, somehow competition among vendors must be maintained to drive down prices.

But the cost of real-estate in desirable locations, the cost of electricity, and the cost of maintenance personnel are all always increasing. I don't know what business model can offer compensation.

On the other hand, if the EV-charging infrastructure enjoyed the same governmental largesse as the fossil-fuel industry...

 

[marshall]

However, non EVers don't see it that way, and just another reason not to buy a BEV. I think price charged per kWh should be closer to the wholesale price.

The price per kWh charged at the station isn't going to go down to the wholesale price. So forget that. If Volta/Shell can get advertising to work, maybe the cost to fast charge will go down.

Unless you live in California or in one of the northeastern states, the cost of electricity is a nonissue. Heck, I'm paying $0.12 kWh and that includes all the taxes and connection fees.

The cost of an EV and the cost to install charging at home are the main barriers. Frankly, a lot of folks don't have the money to install home charging.

In addition, the person selling cars just wants to make a sale. They are not going to try to talk out a buyer from buying an ICE vehicle.

On top of all that, I had to threaten to walk out of buying my used Leaf unless I received the tax credit upfront. The dealership didn't even know anything about it, and they sell cars! I had to wait an additional hour or more while the dealership was trying to figured it out.

 

[R P]

The price per kWh charged at the station isn't going to go down to the wholesale price. So forget that. If Volta/Shell can get advertising to work, maybe the cost to fast charge will go down.

Unless you live in California or in one of the northeastern states, the cost of electricity is a nonissue. Heck, I'm paying $0.12 kWh and that includes all the taxes and connection fees.

The cost of an EV and the cost to install charging at home are the main barriers. Frankly, a lot of folks don't have the money to install home charging.

In addition, the person selling cars just wants to make a sale. They are not going to try to talk out a buyer from buying an ICE vehicle.

On top of all that, I had to threaten to walk out of buying my used Leaf unless I received the tax credit upfront. The dealership didn't even know anything about it, and they sell cars! I had to wait an additional hour or more while the dealership was trying to figured it out.

Well, all of this is not very encouraging to get people to buy a BEV. And we know manufacturers are slowing down their BEV production due to slow sales.

What got me into my first BEV, the Kona, was all the free charging and a $10K instant rebate back in 2019. I drove that car for 3 years, and never had to pay for charge, even at home (free charger 15 min walk). Then sold it at 48K kms for $5K more than what I paid. Those days are now over, and along with all the negative EV press, just not a lot of incentive these days for anyone to buy a BEV.

 

[Puppethead]

There likely won't be any downward pressure on DCFC charging until there are enough charging locations available that EV drivers can shop around. Right now we're mostly just happy to find any DCFC charger that works, and can't choose to go to the charger down the road for a better deal. Especially when road-tripping.