Here is a article from 7/20 saying GM was dropping plans to introduce hydrogen consumer vehicles anytime soon or as part of 20 vehicles to be released over 5 years. And in a thread comment where the article was referenced the commenter said Nikola went to GM seeking to buy its defunct hydrogen tech. Saw two more firms Levy and Korinsky also Rosen now seen 6 firms pursuing Nikola.
Nikola goes 'mark to market' with working prototype claim
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Sorry forgot the link:
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...hydrogen-fuel-cell-tech-in-passenger-vehicles
Noticed too there was/is this higher visibility youtuber sometimes associated with this site who is now done with Nikola. He had bought some shares and was recently carrying water for Nikola on youtube.
But why?! Its not just that critical thinking would tell him that hydrogen is not only not green and will be dirtier by far than coal when derived from already super dirty NG nor will it come from green sources (more expensive still) nor come from the NG scam of 'surplus green' energy (there could only be surplus green if all fossil fuel sources went to zero first and simultaneously)-not only that but hydrogen is not economically viable because NG its source is not economically viable even with tax exemption and hyper subsidies and constant bailouts and never will be just based on first principles physics or thermodynamics and there is no level of tech that could fix it without obviating any need for it.
So logically he knows it can't be clean, can't be climate safe and can't be comercially or economically viable. And he knows its unethical and to support it would show lack of integrity- he goes along with it because at heart he's a green washer. Supports fool cells because he was always a shill was open to being co-opted all along. Watched a bunch of his videos over the past couple years because he would sometimes have interestimg interviews or commentary on more current happenings but remember wondering if he really bought into green. This is the game of co-option and sponsorship, they want to turn, taint or capture people they think of as opinion shapers.
Glad to see his appology and to see he thought GM management would be pushed out if Nikola is fraud, but that is not really the point, hydrogen as fuel or a non nuclear energy source is long past the point of being a technology and now is just yet another fraud and conspiracy by the fossil fuel industry. Trying to defend it puts us all at serious risk and is as lame as defending slavery.
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...hydrogen-fuel-cell-tech-in-passenger-vehicles
Noticed too there was/is this higher visibility youtuber sometimes associated with this site who is now done with Nikola. He had bought some shares and was recently carrying water for Nikola on youtube.
But why?! Its not just that critical thinking would tell him that hydrogen is not only not green and will be dirtier by far than coal when derived from already super dirty NG nor will it come from green sources (more expensive still) nor come from the NG scam of 'surplus green' energy (there could only be surplus green if all fossil fuel sources went to zero first and simultaneously)-not only that but hydrogen is not economically viable because NG its source is not economically viable even with tax exemption and hyper subsidies and constant bailouts and never will be just based on first principles physics or thermodynamics and there is no level of tech that could fix it without obviating any need for it.
So logically he knows it can't be clean, can't be climate safe and can't be comercially or economically viable. And he knows its unethical and to support it would show lack of integrity- he goes along with it because at heart he's a green washer. Supports fool cells because he was always a shill was open to being co-opted all along. Watched a bunch of his videos over the past couple years because he would sometimes have interestimg interviews or commentary on more current happenings but remember wondering if he really bought into green. This is the game of co-option and sponsorship, they want to turn, taint or capture people they think of as opinion shapers.
Glad to see his appology and to see he thought GM management would be pushed out if Nikola is fraud, but that is not really the point, hydrogen as fuel or a non nuclear energy source is long past the point of being a technology and now is just yet another fraud and conspiracy by the fossil fuel industry. Trying to defend it puts us all at serious risk and is as lame as defending slavery.
As pointed out in the most recent INSIDEEVs weekly podcast, the decision becomes:
Bob Wilson
- Independent power, solar, wind, and renewable, to drive
- Dependent power, manufacture hydrogen
Bob Wilson
@Bob. That's a perfect summation. And as you pointed out in the other thread don't impute or assume immorality. Yes of course be charitable. Still its hard when there in my opinion seems to be a lot of misinformation that is so consequential
right now.
Another youtuber "Tesla Joy" did a video in late August after being invited to the Nikola get together and attending. She wanted to say positive things about Nikola but was flustered because she got so much hostile feed back on youtubr. She disabled comments and hasn't posted in about a month. Lets not impute immorality but after watching her long video is amost like she disabled to comments because she didn't want her misinformation corrected in thousands of comments. She still hasn't retracted it. She was stating the Tesla Semi would take 4 to 8 hours to charge and hydrogen was green and would take 15 minutes to fill. So instead of Tesla's stated 30 mins to charge she makes it 4 to 8 hours with no explaination. Whereas the principle behind the megacharger is simple straight forward electronics. I couldn't watch much of it, fast forwarded to her punch line. Maybe she explains the assertion of 4-8 hrs to charge the Tesla Semi earlier on but in her bottom lining she makes no such attemp and seems to have no hit of understanding about the mega charger connector and parallel charging circuits.
What she was put forward seems ourageously inaccurate. She's been involved for a while- how could she not have watched the Hawthorn unveil or bothered to check the stats before going
to the Nikola meeting. She asked Milton about the price of hydrogen but let him get away with saying it was all in the price of the stations, not mentioning the reforming cost from super expensive (esecially relative to green bev) NG source or even greater expense of hydrogen reformed from green sources.
But bigger than all that, this isn't expensive green hydrogen its so called "blue" hydrogen- still super expensive and it will be from dirty natural gas (not green solar and wind) and it will need 2-3x as much NG as would be needed to power BEV semi- or even a NG fuel cell (which the public won't accept for obvious reasons) and so its dirtier than diesel but much more expensive than even diesel.
Think only people who were already shilling were given invites. But think it was this lady who claimed to discover Nikola had no factory build out started.
right now.
Another youtuber "Tesla Joy" did a video in late August after being invited to the Nikola get together and attending. She wanted to say positive things about Nikola but was flustered because she got so much hostile feed back on youtubr. She disabled comments and hasn't posted in about a month. Lets not impute immorality but after watching her long video is amost like she disabled to comments because she didn't want her misinformation corrected in thousands of comments. She still hasn't retracted it. She was stating the Tesla Semi would take 4 to 8 hours to charge and hydrogen was green and would take 15 minutes to fill. So instead of Tesla's stated 30 mins to charge she makes it 4 to 8 hours with no explaination. Whereas the principle behind the megacharger is simple straight forward electronics. I couldn't watch much of it, fast forwarded to her punch line. Maybe she explains the assertion of 4-8 hrs to charge the Tesla Semi earlier on but in her bottom lining she makes no such attemp and seems to have no hit of understanding about the mega charger connector and parallel charging circuits.
What she was put forward seems ourageously inaccurate. She's been involved for a while- how could she not have watched the Hawthorn unveil or bothered to check the stats before going
to the Nikola meeting. She asked Milton about the price of hydrogen but let him get away with saying it was all in the price of the stations, not mentioning the reforming cost from super expensive (esecially relative to green bev) NG source or even greater expense of hydrogen reformed from green sources.
But bigger than all that, this isn't expensive green hydrogen its so called "blue" hydrogen- still super expensive and it will be from dirty natural gas (not green solar and wind) and it will need 2-3x as much NG as would be needed to power BEV semi- or even a NG fuel cell (which the public won't accept for obvious reasons) and so its dirtier than diesel but much more expensive than even diesel.
Think only people who were already shilling were given invites. But think it was this lady who claimed to discover Nikola had no factory build out started.
Theranos is the WRONG comparison.
Enron is the right comparison. This isn't about a charismatic leader its about the systematic fraud of natural gas (heightened because it has always been an unworkable dead end and will be falling out of the market permanently- it is not too big to fail it was destined from the beginning to fail just based on intrinsic physical and economic inefficency which in practical terms can't be fixed not even remotely) and the natural gas industries new diesel gate type scam with hydrogen. We've heard of clean diesel it was diesel gate. Clean coal- obvious nonsense. Now clean 'natural' gas- that was a joke so now they sell hydrogen which in its self is clean but will involve 2x-3x as much dirty fossil fuel being burned as before and keeping an extraneous liquid fuel transport rent seeking mechanism going (a waste of resource and income) and involves some stupid fraudulent manipulations of interstate commerce where they think they can fool states into allowing stuff that is inherantly dirty because its polution is produced in boardering states. Stupid beyond belief with massive inflated costs and zero necessity- quite the opposite of necessity as Paris won't be met if this fraud proceeds.
Enron is the right comparison. This isn't about a charismatic leader its about the systematic fraud of natural gas (heightened because it has always been an unworkable dead end and will be falling out of the market permanently- it is not too big to fail it was destined from the beginning to fail just based on intrinsic physical and economic inefficency which in practical terms can't be fixed not even remotely) and the natural gas industries new diesel gate type scam with hydrogen. We've heard of clean diesel it was diesel gate. Clean coal- obvious nonsense. Now clean 'natural' gas- that was a joke so now they sell hydrogen which in its self is clean but will involve 2x-3x as much dirty fossil fuel being burned as before and keeping an extraneous liquid fuel transport rent seeking mechanism going (a waste of resource and income) and involves some stupid fraudulent manipulations of interstate commerce where they think they can fool states into allowing stuff that is inherantly dirty because its polution is produced in boardering states. Stupid beyond belief with massive inflated costs and zero necessity- quite the opposite of necessity as Paris won't be met if this fraud proceeds.
Might wonder why CNBC has been defending Nikola. Well CNBC has ties to Gates and MSNBC and his friends the Roberts family Comcast (lobbies hard against net neutrality and freedom of speech) owner of CNBC and MSNBC.
And now the Short Enrichment Comission has tried to set up the deal with Milton to mock what they did with Musk. He has to stay away for 3 years. He has to get communication about the company cleared with its legal counsel. He gets to keep what CNBC tried to inflate as 3 billion in stock vice 2 billion- its like 1/3 or so of shares like Musk has. He also gets a million in shares that he can award as he sees fit to give to employees if his choosing (he did something like this prior) but that seems like them sanction hush money to pre-emptively make that seem ok. Then CNBC brings in all the ususal pro fossil fuel suspects like Cowen to spin things like its no big deal.
The emergence of fossil fuels reminds me of another scandalous situation from a decade ago. Steve Perlman set up this revolutionary service to stream games back in 2009. Still superior in many way to current services. It was a threat to Sony and EA. Sony set up this supposed competitor Gaikai that didn't really have any IP but pretended to- this shell was there to steal mindshare and make it seem like Perlman's company wasn't unique to dilute bargaining power and valuation. On the night Perlman's service was to launch it had all of EA's catalog to be offered up but like Lucy with the football because of Sony pulled its catalog causing the launch to fail. Perlman was pissed and lost patience and eventually sold off all the tech to a handful of big competitors.
So this is the oligarch game being played her by captured media. The threated natural gas interests set up this mocking gog magog dappleganger in the hope of derailing an entity set up to take real action on climate change for one set up to fake out the public with fraudulent natural gas. So just a line of utter BS where they try to protect the public image of their fraud vector natural gas derived grey hydrogen passed off as green.
And now the Short Enrichment Comission has tried to set up the deal with Milton to mock what they did with Musk. He has to stay away for 3 years. He has to get communication about the company cleared with its legal counsel. He gets to keep what CNBC tried to inflate as 3 billion in stock vice 2 billion- its like 1/3 or so of shares like Musk has. He also gets a million in shares that he can award as he sees fit to give to employees if his choosing (he did something like this prior) but that seems like them sanction hush money to pre-emptively make that seem ok. Then CNBC brings in all the ususal pro fossil fuel suspects like Cowen to spin things like its no big deal.
The emergence of fossil fuels reminds me of another scandalous situation from a decade ago. Steve Perlman set up this revolutionary service to stream games back in 2009. Still superior in many way to current services. It was a threat to Sony and EA. Sony set up this supposed competitor Gaikai that didn't really have any IP but pretended to- this shell was there to steal mindshare and make it seem like Perlman's company wasn't unique to dilute bargaining power and valuation. On the night Perlman's service was to launch it had all of EA's catalog to be offered up but like Lucy with the football because of Sony pulled its catalog causing the launch to fail. Perlman was pissed and lost patience and eventually sold off all the tech to a handful of big competitors.
So this is the oligarch game being played her by captured media. The threated natural gas interests set up this mocking gog magog dappleganger in the hope of derailing an entity set up to take real action on climate change for one set up to fake out the public with fraudulent natural gas. So just a line of utter BS where they try to protect the public image of their fraud vector natural gas derived grey hydrogen passed off as green.
They never studied (or understood) physics, chemistry, math, and engineering.
Bob Wilson
SouthernDude
Well-Known Member
You have no idea if this is what anyone intended. Goodness. There isn't some fossil fuel oligarchy running the country. That isn't how things work.
Nikola - or any hydrogen fuel cell company - isn't some fossil fuel scam. Their website deliberately explains that their goal is to use renewable energy to power electrolysis to generate hydrogen. It doesn't matter if that's successful or not; what it's showing is clear intent on not using fossil fuels. How on earth do you spin that into being a natural gas conspiracy? That's literally no different than people saying that battery powered electric cars are a fossil fuel conspiracy because 50-60% of US electricity is generated by fossil fuels currently. Obviously that will change over time, so why isn't the same logic relevant with Hydrogen generation?
@sd No its pure bait and switch shell game. While the true costs of grey hydrogen from NG are by far the highest these would be less at the pump if they could diesel gate with a long tail pipe scam. Which they think is some how more reliable because they think they can hide it better ala Toyota's apparent scam now shut down in Long beach to intermingle hydrogen and ng in a transit pipeline- a dumb shell game. Or their other dumb idea that they can do the polluting refoming in red state AZ but sell it across the boarder in CA- a obvious dumb long tail pipe scam. But every version of this is an order of magnitude off on competing on price (they always try to bury the price of the hydrogen in a package in the hope they can get the public to pay for the massive difference and losses with a subsidies.) Bait and switch.
They just want to get the scam started so they can say the con has momentum and is too hard to stop- they want to extend their too big to fail and wage slave hostage human shield gig. Nikola quite apparently never had anything but a willingness to say it had made cost competitive hydrogen when it hadn't and knew it hadn't. GM has less than nothing too tech wise it was abandoning its hydrogen in cars up through July but suddenly based on the less than nothing Nikola had that's enough for a pick up- one with lower specs power wise than a P100D even by Nikola's apparently quite made up specs? And that nothing will make semi viable?
But now we see headlines that the nightmare for Nikola may not be so bad but these claims are hidden behind paywalls for sponsored media- so filtered content only for people dumb enough to pay to be fed sponsored lies or pay for ads.
But we also now have sacred cow fossil fuel promoter and Tesla troll Ellen R. Wald following the playbook in Forbes as in hey Ellen the natural gas oligarchs really want the public to equate Nikola with Tesla as an alternative because they think it might allow them to kick their ponzi can down the road some more where as Tesla will eliminate their ponzi with roof top solar and batteried. So tell the public that the slight Tesla drop monday (due to Elon trying tension a pending major anouncement spike and nix the Osborn effect) is due to Nikola having massive (likely terminal) trouble and increasing broader skepticism about EVs (meaning Tesla) and then try to literally equivocate the scam of fool cells with EV batteries and try to imply Tesla may try to remedy such deficits at battery day. Forbes is usually a pinch hit strategic lie type outfit that strings along to build trust so it can try to shim in a shill at the right moment. Wald is a hyper shill.
They just want to get the scam started so they can say the con has momentum and is too hard to stop- they want to extend their too big to fail and wage slave hostage human shield gig. Nikola quite apparently never had anything but a willingness to say it had made cost competitive hydrogen when it hadn't and knew it hadn't. GM has less than nothing too tech wise it was abandoning its hydrogen in cars up through July but suddenly based on the less than nothing Nikola had that's enough for a pick up- one with lower specs power wise than a P100D even by Nikola's apparently quite made up specs? And that nothing will make semi viable?
But now we see headlines that the nightmare for Nikola may not be so bad but these claims are hidden behind paywalls for sponsored media- so filtered content only for people dumb enough to pay to be fed sponsored lies or pay for ads.
But we also now have sacred cow fossil fuel promoter and Tesla troll Ellen R. Wald following the playbook in Forbes as in hey Ellen the natural gas oligarchs really want the public to equate Nikola with Tesla as an alternative because they think it might allow them to kick their ponzi can down the road some more where as Tesla will eliminate their ponzi with roof top solar and batteried. So tell the public that the slight Tesla drop monday (due to Elon trying tension a pending major anouncement spike and nix the Osborn effect) is due to Nikola having massive (likely terminal) trouble and increasing broader skepticism about EVs (meaning Tesla) and then try to literally equivocate the scam of fool cells with EV batteries and try to imply Tesla may try to remedy such deficits at battery day. Forbes is usually a pinch hit strategic lie type outfit that strings along to build trust so it can try to shim in a shill at the right moment. Wald is a hyper shill.
Now its come out that BP has ditched Nikola as a partner. You can see how that would have worked and how backwards it was. BP had its spill then tried to re-name itself "Beyond Petrolium" and then found green didn't let it bilk the public for unnecessary 'profits' so it backed out. Now in the name of unnecessary obsolete energy rent seeking its back in. And besides off shore wind where its rent seeking will be constrained by the price
of the electrons people can get from their own roofs (Tony Seba says such rent seekers go bankrupt- a mathematical certainty) but in this case BP was going to build these super expensive hydrogen stations ( what a joke 80 million $$ verses extending a wire and installing some electrical sockets and maybe some solar awnings and batteries) for Nikola's pretending super dirty super expensive but hyper subsidized and long tail piped grey hydrogen was actually green or could become green in some pretend future... plan. No shocker that
BP surely also wanted to supply the crap toxic natural gas that would hide as hydrogen but use a lot more ng and be a lot more expensive but hide behind leases and hyper subsidization. Key was telling the public there was a 10x reduction in the price hydrogen. But then it seems a popular youtuber all about Tesla for years went to see the Nikola factory build site and expressed doubts about progress. Then that person along with another popular youtuber often or primarily a Tesla focused youtuber get invited for a 6hrs meeting at Nikola and they make the long drive. Then they come back spewing Natural Gas friendly talking points and get slammed on their channels. What a surprise. In the case of the one, surprise, surprise BP is their damn client! So strategic plant all along it seems- that person didn't even try to hide it, instead tried to make it seem incidental and tried to say the NG friendly spewage like apparently exaggerating the Tesla Semi charging time by about 800%-1600% and claiming it was therefore impractical but hydrogen wasn't- nonsense claims and around the same time and same level of honesty as the Gates claims and then saying the comments in the video were shut off because they (youtuber) wasn't an Elon clone but never offering a retraction. In the case of the other- that youtuber always seemed wishy washy with a doubting Thomas attitude so I thought nepotism or cronyism or just more strategic plant. I hope Hindenberg and otherd keep making this bs transparent. Its the same thing with sponsored bought and paid for cnbc and msnbc- might as well be called owed by fossil fuel especially natural gas want to be oligarchs. CNBC keeps pushing that bought and paid for shill 'analyst' that Elon implied was a bone head as a 'top analyst.' And when they do that the sub title is: paid
liar. Imagine being a paid liar. Paid to mislead the public about matters critical to the public interest. Like a regular Benedict Arnold.
of the electrons people can get from their own roofs (Tony Seba says such rent seekers go bankrupt- a mathematical certainty) but in this case BP was going to build these super expensive hydrogen stations ( what a joke 80 million $$ verses extending a wire and installing some electrical sockets and maybe some solar awnings and batteries) for Nikola's pretending super dirty super expensive but hyper subsidized and long tail piped grey hydrogen was actually green or could become green in some pretend future... plan. No shocker that
BP surely also wanted to supply the crap toxic natural gas that would hide as hydrogen but use a lot more ng and be a lot more expensive but hide behind leases and hyper subsidization. Key was telling the public there was a 10x reduction in the price hydrogen. But then it seems a popular youtuber all about Tesla for years went to see the Nikola factory build site and expressed doubts about progress. Then that person along with another popular youtuber often or primarily a Tesla focused youtuber get invited for a 6hrs meeting at Nikola and they make the long drive. Then they come back spewing Natural Gas friendly talking points and get slammed on their channels. What a surprise. In the case of the one, surprise, surprise BP is their damn client! So strategic plant all along it seems- that person didn't even try to hide it, instead tried to make it seem incidental and tried to say the NG friendly spewage like apparently exaggerating the Tesla Semi charging time by about 800%-1600% and claiming it was therefore impractical but hydrogen wasn't- nonsense claims and around the same time and same level of honesty as the Gates claims and then saying the comments in the video were shut off because they (youtuber) wasn't an Elon clone but never offering a retraction. In the case of the other- that youtuber always seemed wishy washy with a doubting Thomas attitude so I thought nepotism or cronyism or just more strategic plant. I hope Hindenberg and otherd keep making this bs transparent. Its the same thing with sponsored bought and paid for cnbc and msnbc- might as well be called owed by fossil fuel especially natural gas want to be oligarchs. CNBC keeps pushing that bought and paid for shill 'analyst' that Elon implied was a bone head as a 'top analyst.' And when they do that the sub title is: paid
liar. Imagine being a paid liar. Paid to mislead the public about matters critical to the public interest. Like a regular Benedict Arnold.
Source: https://www.detroitnews.com/story/b...ld-talks-bp-hydrogen-fuel-network/3506085001/
Nikola Corp. was in advanced talks with BP Plc over a partnership to build hydrogen fuel stations shortly before a short-seller report raised allegations about the startup’s credibility and capabilities, according to people familiar with the matter.
The companies had an agreement in principle to collaborate on the project for a hydrogen fuel network, which would undergird a plan by Nikola to lease fuel cell-powered trucks, the people said, asking not to be identified discussing private information.
...
Nikola executives have said the company’s assumed cost of producing hydrogen, which it claims will be $2.47 per kilo, is based on its ability to buy renewable electricity – solar, wind, hydroelectric – at wholesale rates from utilities or energy partners.
More and more, Nikola sounds like "The Producers":
Bob Wilson