New Clarity owner and his dumb questions

[Cash Traylor]

There is a tremendous amount of good information here about HV and HV Charge mode and "best practices" and why would you use it etc. There is a lot of personal preference and operating habits. We all have our preferences. The one thing is that first, yes, the motors are brushless DC (asynchronous I believe but cannot find my notes now) which due to phasing of the DC current can be thought of as AC for this discussion. You have motor drivers (inverters) that phase the current to the motors to produce torque, then act as voltage and current controlled rectifiers (DC Chargers) to place the regen energy back into the battery during deceleration. The smaller motor/generator that is part of the ICE effectively is what is used for HV Charge mode as the ICE remains decoupled from the drive shaft (e-CVT) for most all of HV Charge operations. The choice of the 58% SOC for the HV Charge cut-off is likely very much what they said. It is the point where the ICE ceases to be efficient in operation as a generator relative to battery voltage. Honda made a big deal about their system managing efficiency. If you thought of HV Charge as a way to turn liquid fuel into electric fuel, and (no, it doesn't work like this but come with me on this journey) you turned on HV Charge and watched the fuel gauge go down while the electric gauge went up (net zero change in total range) - HV Range decrease but EV range increases. The cut off was selected when the generator was burning more gas than the car could convert into electric range. So if earlier (again I know) the "net total range" was remaining the same, you were just moving the miles from right to left on your dash, at about 58% the engineers noticed that the range was decreasing rapidly (of course they knew that from the specifications of the battery, gen, BMS, etc, but...) So that is why you don't charge further.

Now for my $0.00002 cents worth of "HV Charge button/mode" use input. Lithium chemistry batteries (even Li-PO4 to some extent) do not like being stored in a low state of charge (Hear me DEALERS!!! PLUG THE DANG CARS IN ON YOUR LOT ONCE IN A WHILE) for a long time. Now long is both objective and subjective, but for here lets say you drove your car to the airport to fly to a ship port for a 3 week cruise (I know, I am dreaming of vacation...) and would basically leave your car parked for almost a month at the charge you ended with, unable to charge it while away. It would be a good idea to use HV, or even HV Charge to put about 40-50% of the energy back in for storage chemical (separator plate) stability. Li-Ion cells like to be stored between 40%-60% SOC, not 100% and definitely not 20%. I used to fly a lot of Lithium powered RC aircraft using performance batteries (and you can check Battery University for info as well) and the rule of thumb was never discharge below 20% (which the Clarity protects automatically) nor store at 100% (again, mostly automatic). However, the Clarity will let you drive until the HV battery is at minimums and then switch to ICE, then you can continue to drive to your destination, park and leave it at "EV Empty" for as long as you want. However, that is not recommended - but not prevented by Honda. So again, if you are going to leave it parked for a while - plan your "end of trip" to include a half charged traction battery...

Cheers,

Cash

 

[insightman]

the motors are brushless DC (asynchronous I believe but cannot find my notes now) which due to phasing of the DC current can be thought of as AC for this discussion. You have motor drivers (inverters) that phase the current to the motors to produce torque, then act as voltage and current controlled rectifiers (DC Chargers) to place the regen energy back into the battery during deceleration.

Honda's Clarity specs web page reads:
AC PERMANENT-MAGNET SYNCHRONOUS ELECTRIC MOTOR

I'm no electric motor expert, but if the motor requires an inverter that produces AC current, doesn't that make it an AC motor?

Wikipedia says of brushless electric motors: "synchronous DC motors, are synchronous motors powered by direct current (DC) electricity via an inverter or switching power supply which produces electricity in the form of alternating current (AC)." If that doesn't qualify a brushless electric motor as being an AC motor, does being asynchronous make the motor an AC motor?

Would AC champion, Nikolai Tesla, recognize the Clarity's motors as being his inventions?

 

[Cash Traylor]

Thanks #insightman, yes Nikola would. The answer is still the same, as both motors use phased current (DC as modulated AC or AC across a synchronous inverter). The result is that the battery is discharged and charged through the inverter acting as a variable phase motor driver (DC to AC) or a rectifier charger (AC-DC) likely through a buck/boost voltage-current management array. The result is the same. The trick is in the description and the definition of Tesla's motor (Nikola, not that other guy). If you put permanent magnets in the motor versus delayed flux AC windings (wye/delta) is it an AC motor or a brushless DC motor. There are a lot of experts on this forum that may point to some academic papers to put that argument to rest. For me, it's a BLDC motor with a fancy name.

From the "intergooglefable": An AC induction motor does not have any magnets on the rotor; instead it has a series of laminations and winding. When 3-phase power is applied to the stator of the motor, a rotating magnetic field is generated. ... Alternatively, a BLDC motor replaces the windings on the rotor with a series of permanent magnets.

and further interwebs:

The short answer is: brushless DC (BLDC) and synchronous AC motors are similar in construction and operation. Some manufacturers and experts even group them together as similar technologies, in the category of “permanent magnet synchronous motors.” Their key difference, however, lies in the stator coil windings and resulting back-EMF waveform of each motor. This gives them distinct performance characteristics and dictates separate drive techniques for each.

So is it the motor that is really different, or the way they are driven...

Cheers,
Cash

 

[DucRider]

The motors in OEM EVs are 3 phase AC. AC motor characteristics are much friendlier for daily drivers, as things such as regen are much easier to implement (+ more efficient), and power delivery is easier to control and tune.
DC motors are favored by drag racers (and drifters) due to their right now torque deliver characteristics - nearly ideal for them.

We had a local company (Cascadia Motion) provide some electric motors and an inverter for our auto show display. The small one was 450 HP, the other 900 (literally two of the smaller cores in one case driving a single shaft). Turns out they supplied this motor to GM for the eCOPO Camaro, and four of the smaller ones for the motors in the Rimac One (Richard Hammond infamously crashed one on a Top Gear episode).
Genovation is also using the big one in their GXE Corvettes.

 

[Alex800st]

Another dumb one - on low speed and on EV car emits a "pedestrian alert" noise. I would not mind, but the sound of it is very eerie and scary - practically a sound track from a horror movie, like female chorus singing "a-a-a-a-a-a" far away in the forest.
I had it in the shop to put a tint, sound in closed garage sounded even louder, and everybody in the area came and asked - WTF?
Not sure - it could be only canadian regulations.
Is there a way to disable it?

 

[Landshark]

Now that there’s full agreement on the type of motors used in the Clarity, any idea of the voltage or how the generator charges the batteries in HV Charge mode?

 

[Landshark]

but the sound of it is very eerie and scary - practically a sound track from a horror movie, like female chorus singing "a-a-a-a-a-a" far away in the forest.

There is probably a fuse or wire that could be removed to stop the sound. Doing so may trigger an alert on the dash display which could also be scary. There have been reports of other scary dash warnings.

Not sure - it could be only canadian regulations.
Is there a way to disable it?

US models emit a similar sound. In 6 months of occasional driving in parking lots, I have yet to see a single pedestrian even notice the warning sound, let alone run for cover out of fear of approach female forest choirs. How I wish they would scatter.

There is apparently a new sound coming for 2020. For now, set the stereo volume to 15 or higher and select the music of your choice prior to taking the car out of park.

 

[KentuckyKen]

Another dumb one - on low speed and on EV car emits a "pedestrian alert" noise. I would not mind, but the sound of it is very eerie and scary - practically a sound track from a horror movie, like female chorus singing "a-a-a-a-a-a" far away in the forest.
I had it in the shop to put a tint, sound in closed garage sounded even louder, and everybody in the area came and asked - WTF?
Not sure - it could be only canadian regulations.
Is there a way to disable it?

Unlike US models, the Canadian models in 2018/19 had a button in the cluster to the low left of the steering wheel that would cancel the Pedestrian Alert. However, you would have to push it every time you start the car. I don’t know if the 2020 Canadian models still have this. Just look for the button and let us know.

I wish we were offered the option and legally allowed to change the tones. I’d prefer either George Jetson’s whirring flying car sound or maybe Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries (and yes, I know that’s just the popular term for his operatic prelude, so please no flames).

 

[Alex800st]

There is No button to turn it off
Another thing I've noticed - currently I have an old civic hybrid, also with sideview and rearview cameras.
The picture quality on civic is like 4K TV signal - unlike VHS quality on clarity. It makes me suffer..

 

[Landshark]

This thread reminds me of a Robert Altman film where there are several conversations going on in a room and the camera moves from one to the next.

The Abstract posted elsewhere on the Clarity drive system call the motors “Brushless DC motors”. Max voltage is 650V.
Two phases of DC are used. I believe they called it alternating DC. Only 2 phases were mentioned.

 

[Alex800st]

This thread reminds me of a Robert Altman film where there are several conversations going on in a room and the camera moves from one to the next.

Yes, I am trying to keep the thread on track by keep asking dumb questions, but some people are too smart for it and use my thread to discuss ac/dc motors and stuff. Like this is the last place on internet left
I do not mind, I am learning a lot.

BTW I 3D printed holders for evse and for the plug, here:

 

[Tek_Freek]

Unlike US models, the Canadian models in 2018/19 had a button in the cluster to the low left of the steering wheel that would cancel the Pedestrian Alert. However, you would have to push it every time you start the car. I don’t know if the 2020 Canadian models still have this. Just look for the button and let us know.

I wish we were offered the option and legally allowed to change the tones. I’d prefer either George Jetson’s whirring flying car sound or maybe Wagner’s Ride of the Valkyries (and yes, I know that’s just the popular term for his operatic prelude, so please no flames).

This is what I want:

 

[Landshark]

Yes, I am trying to keep the thread on track by keep asking dumb questions, but some people are too smart for it and use my thread to discuss ac/dc motors and stuff. Like this is the last place on internet left
I do not mind, I am learning a lot.

BTW I 3D printed holders for evse and for the plug, here:

I’ll be presumptuous and offer some advice. A thread will never stay on track if you keep asking different questions.

One of your questions was about using HV Charge. This is why there has been some discussion about DC motors.

After you’ve searched the forum for an answer, start a new thread with each new question. It might stay in topic for the first page or two.

 

[Alex800st]

"start a new thread with each new question"
Sure, as soon as my questions will become more intelligent meantime everybody welcomes to this thread with stupid and newbie ones, and let this thread go off track as much as it have to - it is fun and easy way to get as much info as possible in the first days of ownership of this car.

 

[Mowcowbell]

Keep digging around here, and you'll find some other bits of good information.

Here's a good one.

You'll learn that you don't need to spend $200+ on a Level 2 evse. The Honda OEM evse provided with the car was manufactured by Panasonic and is capable of running on either 120/240v. All you need is a NEMA 6-20 cord, cut off the receptacle end and replace it with a NEMA 5-20 receptacle which will allow you to plug in the OEM evse into that. I have a NEMA 14-50 outlet (same as found in RV parks) in my garage, so I use a 14-50 to 6-20 adapter. My modified cord plugs into the 6-20 end of the adapter.

No modification needs to be made to the Honda OEM evse itself, so you can still run it on 120v if you need to. The Honda OEM evse pulls ~11amps whether it is on 120 or 240v. Running it on 240v will allow you to charge a 'empty' battery to 'full' in about 5.5 hours.

 

[Alex800st]

Keep digging around here, and you'll find some other bits of good information.

Here's a good one.

You'll learn that you don't need to spend $200+ on a Level 2 evse. The Honda OEM evse provided with the car was manufactured by Panasonic and is capable of running on either 120/240v. All you need is a NEMA 6-20 cord, cut off the receptacle end and replace it with a NEMA 5-20 receptacle which will allow you to plug in the OEM evse into that. I have a NEMA 14-50 outlet (same as found in RV parks) in my garage, so I use a 14-50 to 6-20 adapter. My modified cord plugs into the 6-20 end of the adapter.

No modification needs to be made to the Honda OEM evse itself, so you can still run it on 120v if you need to. The Honda OEM evse pulls ~11amps whether it is on 120 or 240v. Running it on 240v will allow you to charge a 'empty' battery to 'full' in about 5.5 hours.

Wow. That is super useful piece of information.
I am kinda confused with the fact that 14-50 that I installed in my garage has two hot wires, neutral and ground - so it can feed 240 volts loads. However 6-20 seems to be a single phase, means one hot, one neutral, one ground - and in a normally wiring it would have only 110v.
Unless that adapter from 14-15 to 6-20 does not pass the neutral but instead passing another phase. First time I hear that it is possible. Could you please post the link on such adapter? The ones from home depo passing one hot, neutral and ground, so you'd still have only 110.

 

[Mowcowbell]

Here's the NEMA 14-50 to 6-20 adapter that I used: https://www.amazon.com/14-50P-6-15R-Adapter-Adaptor-Charger/dp/B07HX9JCC4/ref=sr_1_2?crid=1FET7WJKDDQ1E&keywords=nema+14-50+to+6-20+adapter&qid=1582813626&sprefix=nema+14-50+to+6-20,aps,163&sr=8-2

Here's the NEMA 6-20 extension that I bought and cut off the receptacle and replaced with a NEMA 5-20.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07CTG9NJW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1

You can save more and just go with a 1 foot cord if you want. Some folks place a yellow or orange warning label on the modified end so that noone tries to plug in a 120v device. I don't have anyone messing around in my garage but me so I didn't bother.

Finally, here is the 5-20 receptacle I used for the end of the cord. The Honda OEM evse only draws 11 amps and the modified cord has all 20amp rated parts.

https://www.amazon.com/Journeyman-P...?keywords=nema+5-20+end&qid=1582814346&sr=8-5

Many of the low power 16amp Level 2 evse's use NEMA 6-20.

Some cautious folks here will warn you that you risk burning down your house with this cord, but I am comfortable with the work I did. Been using it for over 9 months without any problems. I'd trust my work over some of the cheap Chinese extension cords you buy at the store.

 

[Raymondca]

There is No button to turn it off
Another thing I've noticed - currently I have an old civic hybrid, also with sideview and rearview cameras.
The picture quality on civic is like 4K TV signal - unlike VHS quality on clarity. It makes me suffer..

My 2019 model was bought in Kitchener. It has a button to turn it off. I don't believe it's taken out in 2020 model. Check again? I used to press it everyday I moved out of my garage. Now I just leave it. Sometimes it's better to change myself...

 

[Landshark]

Yes, I am trying to keep the thread on track by keep asking dumb questions,

Sure, as soon as my questions will become more intelligent meantime everybody welcomes to this thread with stupid and newbie ones, and let this thread go off track as much as it have to - it is fun and easy way to get as much info as possible in the first days of ownership of this car.

Which is it? Keep it on track or let it go off track?

There’s nothing wrong with asking questions. There’s also noting wrong with reading the owners manual or Domenick’s FAQ thread at the top of this forum or searching this forum for the answers that you seek. The 3- bar Menu button in the upper left corner offers a drop down menu with a search option.

There are effective methods available to learn and gain knowledge about this car.

Yes, for best results, start a new thread with each new question.

Floor mats, thread.
Pedestrian Alert, thread.
HV Charge, thread.
Hondalink, thread.

 

[Groves Cooke]

"Yes, for best results, start a new thread with each new question."

Agree. I am on a lot of other forums - musical instruments, antique tractors, etc. None of them have continuous threads like this one. This is not the first thread that wanders way away from the original post. Keep the threads confined to one subject and move on to a new one. Multiple threads on the same subject are better than multiple subjects on the same thread.