National Drive Electric Week

[DucRider]

It's not so weird. It is possible to combine meal and bathroom breaks with charging . . . sometimes. But I noticed when planning my trip to Kansas from Vermont last year, if I wanted to stop and charge there were whole swathes of the route where the only charging stations were at non Honda dealerships or not near any amenities such as bathrooms or eateries. One was in the middle of nowhere. Checking it on google maps satellite view, I could see a couple of miles hike and still nothing that looked like amenities.

As for driving without a break, not unusual for a carpool headed out after work on Friday to a dance weekend 7+ hours away. Bathroom breaks, yes, meals not so much --that's what brown bags and/or fast food are for. Just swapping drivers and napping in between shifts at the wheel then straight onto the dance floor for 3 days then after the last Sunday afternoon dance, into the car and head back.

Not me of course, the only time I ever did anything like that was when I was headed from Russellville AR to Knoxville TN via Little Rock (to drop my cousin at the airport on the way). I was the only driver because my passenger was blind and I needed to get to the dance that evening in Knoxville. I don't think I could have done it if I had been driving electric.

Teslas would not charge at dealers (Honda or not), so amenities in near those locations are irrelevant. Superchargers were intentionally placed near the things that people will want when they stop, restrooms, food etc. Either you are uninformed or being intentionally obtuse
And a VERY small percentage of the population would drive the 7+ hours with only 3 minute bathroom breaks and switch drivers, so putting that scenario on a comparison card, is as I said - nonsense. You even admit you would never do such a thing.
Plus, it is extremely unlikely that someone that was planning on using a Tesla for long distance travel would buy the very base model with the lowest range. If you want to cherry pick from the Tesla side, compare to one with 370 miles of range and no refueling costs. Or compare it with the Roadster 2 with 600 miles of range - no fuel stops at all.
If you posted that sign at my NDEW event, either it would come down or you would be asked to leave (and possibly only the latter). No argument, no discussion necessary. I find it rather appalling that anyone would think it proper to come to an event about driving on electricity and advocate the use of gas. Not questioning your right to hold that opinion, but certainly questioning your judgement in how and where you chose to express it.

 

[Walt R]

@2002 Your Brookhaven PD needs to get in touch with the Hyattsville, MD PD - they have a Bolt car, and have been in a few articles thinking it was the first actual patrol EV in the US. How long has Brookhaven had that Tesla?

The Hyattsville NDEW event had a nice mix of cars - no Taycan, but I saw my first Pacifica plug-in, and there were Bolts and Konas as well.

 

[2002]

The most interesting car for me was a home-brew Fiat X1/9 electric conversion.

The Atlanta show had a DIY conversion of a classic Mercedes. The owner said it only goes fifty miles if I remember correctly but he said his next project with a more modern battery should go a lot farther. He used a stock electric assembly I think he said from a Leaf but I didn't quite hear him. Whatever it was he had the Mercedes logo stamped into the cover. Interestingly he said German cars are easier to convert, I didn't quite catch if that is just because that is what he is used to converting or if there is some inherent advantage.

The Citroen at the Atlanta show just had the Citroen logo in back and Citroen badge in front but it didn't have a model name on it, but I am guessing it was the rebadged version of the Mitsubishi i-MiEV like the one in your photo. The i-MiEV was sold in the U.S. but the rebadged Citroen version was only sold in Europe as far as I know. I didn't get to talk to the owner but I assume it had been imported.

 

[insightman]

Your chart assumes no bathroom or meal breaks in 7+ hours. I don't know of many people that travel that way. Real world times would be nearly identical. Not sure why people need to spread misinformation to justify that the they chose wisely. Insecurity?
Spreading this type of nonsense at a NDEW is usually frowned upon.

Were you also bothered by my photo of the Fiat 500 e with a mechanical supercharger laying on the hood? Nobody at the event frowned upon that nonsense.

I don't see how I was spreading misinformation. Everybody knows how long they can drive a car without taking a break and that requirement varies greatly. In my youth I once drove my CRX 1,500 miles in 22 hours. That's a personal factor not dictated by physics.

My chart describes the minimum time required to make a 500-mile drive at 72 mph. You could drive a Tesla at far above the Clarity's 100 mph maximum and make up some of the hour difference, but that might increase the time required to charge.

A $35K Tesla driver with no range anxiety might be able to save 15 minutes by stopping just twice to charge. I might be able to fill my Clarity's 7-gallon gas tank in less than 10 minutes.

That said, only a few people were the least bit interested in the chart and when speaking with them I jested that I purposely picked the distance to ensure the $35K Model 3 had to stop at least 3 times while the Clarity would have to stop only once.

At last year's NDEW event, my sign said that in 10 months my Clarity had burned exactly the same amount of gas as all the Teslas at the event, COMBINED! That's insecurity for you.

 

[KentuckyKen]

Your chart assumes no bathroom or meal breaks in 7+ hours. I don't know of many people that travel that way. Real world times would be nearly identical. Not sure why people need to spread misinformation to justify that the they chose wisely. Insecurity?
Spreading this type of nonsense at a NDEW is usually frowned upon.

I don’t think @insightman was spreading misinformation. I looked at his chart and it shows only 250 miles uninterrupted travel. At 70 mph, that’s less than 4 hours behind the wheel on one stretch which is quite doable.
Am I missing something?

 

[MPower]

You even admit you would never do such a thing.

I certainly would not. Hell, I didn't bring anything to the Montpelier event except myself and the car, minus most of the popcorn bits (didn't have time to get all the chocolate milk and tea stains off the upolstry At least it was the base model so I didn't have to pick melted chocolate out of the perforations on the leather). One of the Tesla guys spent the entire time lovingly wiping his car. Made me almost wish it would rain so my car would look a little cleaner. (Memo to self stay off the back roads before showing off car.)

 

[Tek_Freek]

Your chart assumes no bathroom or meal breaks in 7+ hours. I don't know of many people that travel that way. Real world times would be nearly identical. Not sure why people need to spread misinformation to justify that the they chose wisely. Insecurity?
Spreading this type of nonsense at a NDEW is usually frowned upon.

Of course it assumes both. When we drove from Salt Lake City to Las Vegas the day we bought the car we made one stop to fill the tank. While I was filling it she went to the restroom and picked up some fast food. While I was using the restroom she moved the car away from the pump. I'd guess 10-15 minutes max.

Total trip was 423 miles and w/o stops 6 hours 12 minutes. We are both 71 years old and it was a piece of cake. We could have easily made the trip he uses in the same manner.

 

[css28]

The Atlanta show had a DIY conversion of a classic Mercedes. The owner said it only goes fifty miles if I remember correctly but he said his next project with a more modern battery should go a lot farther. He used a stock electric assembly I think he said from a Leaf but I didn't quite hear him.
View attachment 6206

That definitely looks like a LEAF motor (with different logo, of course).

 

[DucRider]

The point of NDEW is educate the public about the benefits of driving electric.
Showing a chart that claims driving 7+ hours with only one 10 minute break? Possible? Yes. Typical? Far from it.
Displaying that chart to people who are looking for reasons to stay with what is comfortable, they will conclude that a hybrid (Accord, Camry, etc) is a FAR better choice than even the longest range electric car. You do not get a chance to engage or talk with the majority of people that view it to explain that it applies only to a very specific use case that 99% would never engage in, and that around town driving is covered by electricity.

 

[2002]

Showing a chart that claims driving 7+ hours with only one 10 minute break? Possible? Yes. Typical? Far from it.

I think it's clear (at least to me) that the chart doesn't claim that there won't be any other breaks. But I think your main concern is what message should we be sending to the public. That is complicated because there are people out there who are perfect candidates for an EV, even if they don't know it. Certainly we want to make them aware of the great strides in range and charging availability that have occurred in recent years.

But there are other people who even if knowing all of that are just not willing at this time to accept the current limitations of an EV. But many of those people would be willing to drive a PHEV if they knew they existed. Which almost no one does. If a high percentage of the public doesn't even know what an EV is (surveys show that to be the case) they certainly don't know what a PHEV is. But if they are like most people driving a PHEV would lead to an incredible reduction in their use of fossil fuels. So if we can somehow locate the people who are not able or willing at the moment to go full EV and tell them about PHEV, I really think many of them would go PHEV. Instead, if all they hear about is EV, no matter how positively presented, if it's just not for them right now, then they will purchase an all gas car.

The problem is that when you are talking to someone (or showing charts) you don't know which way any particular individual might potentially go. I think it is a valid point that we should not present one type as being better to the detriment of the other. The best thing is to point out the positives of each and present both in such a way that people will hopefully choose one of the plug-in types and not continue using only gasoline.

 

[DucRider]

I think it is a valid point that we should not present one type as being better to the detriment of the other. The best thing is to point out the positives of each and present both in such a way that people will hopefully choose one of the plug-in types and not continue using only gasoline.

That is basically what I was trying to point out, You yourself said:

Here's the chart I handed out to tweak the Tesla crowd.

Your chart is not designed with the intent to educate the public in any way. As I said before, someone skeptical about driving electric would conclude from that chart that there was no benefit and it would in fact make life harder. As you state, the differentiation (or even existence) of PHEV vs BEV is not generally in the public's awareness. A chart that highlights the benefits of using electricity for most of your driving while having the gas engine for long trips would be appropriate. Leaving any mention of the driving electric part out is not. IF you showed that chart to 100 people unfamiliar with electric vehicles, how many would conclude that they should consider one (PHEV or BEV) as their next vehicle?

PHEV's are indeed sometimes the best choice for someone looking to start driving electric, and we had dealers offering test drives on 4-5 models (the Clarity would have been on that list if Honda made it available for dealers to carry inventory), and we had others on display by owners that could speak to the public on why they chose one.

I have to constantly remind volunteers to avoid negatives when engaging the public. Explaining the positive aspects without putting down other peoples choices or preferences is tricky for some to grasp.

 

[insightman]

That is basically what I was trying to point out, You yourself said:

Your chart is not designed with the intent to educate the public in any way. As I said before, someone skeptical about driving electric would conclude from that chart that there was no benefit and it would in fact make life harder. As you state, the differentiation (or even existence) of PHEV vs BEV is not generally in the public's awareness. A chart that highlights the benefits of using electricity for most of your driving while having the gas engine for long trips would be appropriate. Leaving any mention of the driving electric part out is not.

PHEV's are indeed sometimes the best choice for someone looking to start driving electric, and we had dealers offering test drives on 4-5 models (the Clarity would have been on that list if Honda made it available for dealers to carry inventory), and we had others on display by owners that could speak to the public on why they chose one.

I have to constantly remind volunteers to avoid negatives when engaging the public. Explaining the positive aspects without putting down other peoples choices or preferences is tricky for some to grasp.

You're quoting me writing "Here's the chart I handed out to tweak the Tesla crowd." and claiming @2002 was responsible for my totally irrational, irresponsible, misleading, and almost criminal promotion of PHEVs that should have caused me to be ejected from the NDEW event after I spent more than an hour setting up the signs and shelter before the event. Had they ejected me, I would have had to come back later to help take down the signs after the event. Give @2002 a break, but feel free to continue hitting on me, instead.

 

[2002]

You're quoting me writing "Here's the chart I handed out to tweak the Tesla crowd." and claiming @2002 was responsible for my totally irrational, irresponsible, misleading, and almost criminal promotion of PHEVs that should have caused me to be ejected from the NDEW event after I spent more than an hour setting up the signs and shelter before the event. Had they ejected me, I would have had to come back later to help take down the signs after the event. Give @2002 a break, but feel free to continue hitting on me, instead.

That's okay you can take the credit for the chart and I'll take the blame . I think the chart is good and is an easy to understand illustration of what we usually say verbally about PHEV. I think at shows like this, or in discussions on EV forums, it's easy to feel that PHEV is looked down on, marginalized, or even worse seen as harmful to the cause. At the Atlanta event I had a nice conversation with a really nice guy with a model X, I was talking about my Clarity and at one point he said how PHEV's are pretty much becoming irrelevant. I just shrugged it off as that is the common sentiment and I didn't take it personally.

So it feels we have an uphill battle gaining awareness, especially if many EV owners publicly diss PHEV (I am not talking about DucRider who is supportive). Whereas I think (or at least hope) we rarely do that to EV at least not intentionally, since most PHEV owners I think would like to eventually own an EV. I know you would trade your Clarity for a Honda E tomorrow if it was available.

 

[KClark]

But there are other people who even if knowing all of that are just not willing at this time to accept the current limitations of an EV. But many of those people would be willing to drive a PHEV if they knew they existed. Which almost no one does.

That describes me exactly. I'm pretty knowledgeable about cars and technology in general. I thought I knew the plug in landscape, ie the Prius. I've never liked them in any form, I know it's kind of irrational, but besides that visceral dislike they're also small, too small for what I wanted in a new car. And I thought I knew Clarities, I'd seen the ads for the fuel cell and read about the technology. So whenever I saw something about Clarities I assumed it was the fuel cell version and ignored it as a possible car for me. Just by chance I came across a youtube video about the plug in Clarity. I was intrigued and when I found out it qualified for both state and federal rebates and that my local dealers were willing to bargain it kind of sold itself.

 

[insightman]

most PHEV owners I think would like to eventually own an EV. I know you would trade your Clarity for a Honda E tomorrow if it was available.

You are correct, my Clarity PHEV has convinced me I must have a small BEV. I have a placed a deposit on the all-electric MINI Cooper SE, due in March. The chart I'll post on my MINI at next year's NDEW event will decry the 40 gallons of gasoline I've burned in my Clarity PHEV over 2 years that have burdened the atmosphere with 800 pounds of carbon-dioxide.

I'll conceal the fact that I kept my wonderful Clarity and sold my 2006 Insight hybrid to get the MINI BEV.

 

[2002]

You are correct, my Clarity PHEV has convinced me I must have a small BEV. I have a placed a deposit on the all-electric MINI Cooper SE, due in March. The chart I'll post on my MINI at next year's NDEW event will decry the 40 gallons of gasoline I've burned in my Clarity PHEV over 2 years that have burdened the atmosphere with 800 pounds of carbon-dioxide.

I'll conceal the fact that I kept my wonderful Clarity and sold my 2006 Insight hybrid to get the MINI BEV.

We have a local consumer reporter named Clark Howard, some may have heard of him as his radio call-in show has been syndicated nationwide for many years. He was the first person that I know of with a hybrid as he bought an Insight in 2000 shortly after they came out (beating Prius to the U.S. by a few months) and he talked about it a lot on his show. Anyway he was at the Atlanta NDEW event on Saturday with his Model S. I have met him before (not that he remembers me) and I talked to him briefly, I mentioned I had a Clarity which he knew about, I told him for the moment they are now selling them only in California and he said "So they're going back to being a compliance car" so he's up on all of that.

 

[skylines]

Long time lurker. Finally got around to making an account. Appreciate all the details that I have picked up here. Thought I would chime in to mention that we had a real world experience last summer where we happened to undertake a trip exactly of the sort that insightman mentioned with one group in a Tesla (not 3, but a higher end one with a longer range) and the other in an ICE. Just over 500 miles. Plenty of stops for meals and recharging the Tesla. But eventually the ICE left the Tesla more than an hour behind. Partly because of recharging, and partly because the Tesla recommended lower speeds and/or alternate slower routes to be able to make it safely to the next charge station. So insightman's flyer is a little tongue in cheek, but seems pretty realistic.

 

[skylines]

Also out here in Grand Rapids mine was the only Clarity at the drive electric week. Few had seen one before of course. But there was a fair bit of interest. Other than the usual suspects the most interesting EVs were older models. There was an early 2000s electric RAV4. And early 1980s Jet Electricas which were electric vehicles built on a Ford Escort frame. Surprisingly decent 50 miles range. There were actually two of these side by side!

 

[KentuckyKen]

IMHO, it is not misinformation or discouraging EV ownership to point out the advantages of a Clarity PHEV (as long as you mention the advantages of a similar range BEV).
There are pluses and minus on both sides any automotive comparison, including EVs.
I sold two Claritys at last year’s DEW event (only got paid for 1), primarily by pointing out the lack of range anxiety and the economics. That’s because the question I hear the most is “How far will it go until until it leaves me stranded or twiddling my thumbs wiring to charge, or driving out of my way to find a charger. When I explain the tax credit and that you drive locally all electric but have gas engine for unlimited range on trips like your present car, most people are amazed. And none of my Tesla friends take it personally because in some areas and conditions, their Tesla shines brighter than my Clarity.
Until BEV prices come down (after figuring in the tax credit) and the EVSE infrastructure matures and expands, PHEVs will have their place. But eventually we won’t need them. We’re not quite there yet.

One day I will be very happy to be rocking a chair in the nursing home and telling my great grandchildren how I was an early adopter of EVs as they ask me “What’s a spark plug?” I’d rather be driving 90% electric in a PHEV car I can afford now rather than waiting years for an affordable BEV with a robust charging network.

 

[2002]

That’s because the question I hear the most is “How far will it go until until it leaves me stranded or twiddling my thumbs wiring to charge, or driving out of my way to find a charger.

That could however be the situation of someone who is going on old or incorrect information. Without knowing it might be good to at least briefly dispel any EV misconceptions before then talking about the advantages of PHEV. Maybe something like this in response:

"You aren't likely to get stranded with an EV. The car is always "filling up" when you are home so normally you will be starting off with a full battery, and most electric cars now get 100 miles or more of range. So as long as you drive less than that in a day you will have plenty of range. And if you do go past that there are many places to charge now, many more than there used to be, and chargers are much faster now. You can also get an electric car with longer range like 200 miles or more, although they do cost more. As an alternative you can get a PHEV which is what I have, it goes fewer EV miles per charge but if you go beyond that it switches to gas so you don't have to charge up to keep going."