George Davidson
Active Member
Would you mind posting some screenshots from time to time?
Kona EV range at cold temperatures (100% SOC range 228 km at -22°C)
- Thread starter George Davidson
- Start date
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Would you mind posting some screenshots from time to time?
apu
Well-Known Member
Just for the sake of another winter driving data point I did another 476 km roundtrip(Winnipeg-Brandon, Mb) for work yesterday. It was -21C on my outbound leg which averaged 3.7km/kW( actual 237km range 100%SOC) travelling at 100km/hr with 5km head wind, dry roads, winter mode on. After the first 120km and 50% SOC I stopped to DC charge, I topped up 12% charge as I knew it would not make it to my destination if I did not. Battery temp was 2C when I arrived at first charger. My max charge rate at the 200kW PetroCan DC charger was 24kW/hr for most of the top up.
I arrived at my destination with 5% SOC and a battery temp of 16C. At the destination charger the session started at 44kw/hr and ramped up to 76kW/hr when the battery temp in the coldest pack module hit 25C( took an additional 30+ minutes for pack to warm up the extra 9 degrees with battery heater on + charging loss heat) approximately at 40%SOC and then tapered down after 50% SOC to eventually 24kw/hr at 82% when I stopped. Its important to note if I did not top off(with benefit of battery heater on) at the first charger and was somehow able to make it to 2nd charger the battery pack temp would have never of hit 25C and the max rate during that charge session would have never exceeded 44kw/hr.
On the return trip the I started off with 82% SOC -19C, 6km tailwind at 100km/hr, light snow on roads, averaged 4.3 km/kW consumption(225 km actual range with 82% SOC ), stopped again at mid way point 120km into the trip, topped up 10% again at 24 kw/hr as battery was once again cold. I arrived home with 4% (turtle mode). In the end I spent $40 in electricity to travel 476 km which would be still $21 cheaper than my wife's petrol CRV. On the down side I spent a total of 126 minutes of Christmas day at the 3 DC charger stops, ugh.
I arrived at my destination with 5% SOC and a battery temp of 16C. At the destination charger the session started at 44kw/hr and ramped up to 76kW/hr when the battery temp in the coldest pack module hit 25C( took an additional 30+ minutes for pack to warm up the extra 9 degrees with battery heater on + charging loss heat) approximately at 40%SOC and then tapered down after 50% SOC to eventually 24kw/hr at 82% when I stopped. Its important to note if I did not top off(with benefit of battery heater on) at the first charger and was somehow able to make it to 2nd charger the battery pack temp would have never of hit 25C and the max rate during that charge session would have never exceeded 44kw/hr.
On the return trip the I started off with 82% SOC -19C, 6km tailwind at 100km/hr, light snow on roads, averaged 4.3 km/kW consumption(225 km actual range with 82% SOC ), stopped again at mid way point 120km into the trip, topped up 10% again at 24 kw/hr as battery was once again cold. I arrived home with 4% (turtle mode). In the end I spent $40 in electricity to travel 476 km which would be still $21 cheaper than my wife's petrol CRV. On the down side I spent a total of 126 minutes of Christmas day at the 3 DC charger stops, ugh.
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Yellerledbetty
Member
Fairing relatively well with our 2019 (that had a battery replacement last month).
Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
apu
Well-Known Member
The problem is posting your just your GOM range in no way represents reality.
This is my current temp and GOM reading -21 and 312km(based on recent highway cycle with heat off). I know for the fact despite what GOM claims if I drive 100km/hr with no headwind and driver only eco heat set at 21C auto, the best I am going to do is around 230-260 km on a full charge. The best way to provide your actual winter range is drive a reasonable set distance with a realistic climate controls settings so at least your windows don't frost over assuming similar driving variables of speed, temperature, headwind, road conditions, etc and multiply your average consumption of miles or km/kW x 64 . Again, GOM readings are otherwise meaningless.
Oh, as a side addendum if you park your car outside in the winter your urban cycle range for short trips is not going to be much better as as the major EV advantage of regenerative braking is significantly reduced at -21C compared to summer temperatures.
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George Davidson
Active Member
Wildeyed
Well-Known Member
I don't know what you're doing but to me that's low. I'm at 330 at 80% and -10C. And I'm at that consistently. Like for almost 3 years worth of winters.
George Davidson
Active Member
There is nothing special. Driving at 110 km/hr on Hwy-16. Keeping the front windshield from defrosting using the "FRONT" button, which kind of sucks because we cannot have the heat directed at our feet and we need to cycle between "FRONT" and the combined option of front & feet (the radio button).
The front windshield gets frosty/foggy in the corners but that is ok.
The front side windshields get foggy and even frosty very quickly.
The rear side windshields are frosty all the time. Never able to defrost them at these temperatures. Three people breathing in the car simply create enough moisture which finds the coldest place to condensate on.
We preheat the car once or twice before setting off. It does not make much difference. The effect disappears after several mins.
I used "winter mode" all the time but do not find it very helpful. Last time I got to the fast charger at the Londonderry Mall in Edmonton, even with winter mode, I was able to get only 28 kWh in one hour and 7 mins. It is the FLO fast charger and you get the email once charging is stopped. That is how I know these exact figures.
It is what is.
Canadian winters.
Several months constantly at -20 and lower.
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George Davidson
Active Member
There is no change in efficiency as it is maxed out at 27C all the time.
I was talking about altering the airflow. Not a big deal but it could be more powerful when directing at the windshield and the feet at the same time.
The current power is not sufficient. If I keep it that way for a minute or so then the side windshield get completely foggy and I cannot see the mirrors. At that moment I need to switch to "FRONT".
I cycle back and forth every several minutes.
Wildeyed
Well-Known Member
Are you saying you run the heat at 27°C? Because, holy smokes, that's your issue right there.
I also have not had your issues with window fogging. Is it possible that you have a clogged vent, broken damper or gimpy fan?
I tend to run with vents aimed at face and feet and, while I'll allow some A/C to run and reduce moisture levels, I generally override the system and manually turn off the A/C once I'm underway.
George Davidson
Active Member
There is no choice other than run the heat at 27C at highway speed.
Finally, we get some understanding.
The fogging and frosting are caused by the temperature difference.
Outside temperature and speed simply start winning.
I see that you do not have experience with temperatures being constantly, 24/7, below -20, -30, and getting to -40. Add -10 for windchill.
And that windchill at 110 km/hr adds more than -10 to those -20 / -30.
It is getting to the point when you need some 15 kWh/100km for the engine and 12 kWh/100 km for heating and airflow.
That is real Canadian winter.
Squeaky snow under your shoes.
Nostrils start being sticky.
EV starts giving off sounds which you do not hear normally when it is not that cold.
That is what I and Apu are talking about and you may not have much experience with.
You know that Apu is from Manitoba.
I am from central Alberta.
The East and West coasts are much different.
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Wildeyed
Well-Known Member
I've been through several lengthy runs of -30+ and my car lives outside full time. It gets cold. At the lowest temperatures with passengers, and their breath, I have also encountered side window frosting. If you ask me (and I know you didn't) jacking the heat to tropical levels is not only draining your range it is probably also liberating a lot of frozen moisture all at once and overwhelming the car's ability to eliminate it. Let the a/c work and crack a window while making full use of heat seating and winter clothing to keep warm. Also, before shutting things down after a trip, open the windows and allow some of the accumulated moisture to escape. You need to reduce the temperature differential between inside and outside. I know I'm probably preaching to the choir here but your current approach is giving you really crappy and, I'm sure, really frustrating results.
R P
Well-Known Member
I have not been in really cold weather with my Kona, but I know the resistance heater is very strong, heating the cabin up quickly. So yeah, if it was frosted up, makes sense that the rapid heating would cause the air to become moist very quickly and thus condensing on cold outside surfaces. Opening a car window does makes sense.
navguy12
Well-Known Member
Comment from the peanut gallery: based on my four winters with my TM3, ensure that your HVAC system isn’t forcing itself to use “recirculate” air (while in automatic mode) as an attempt to reduce the energy used in heating the passenger compartment.
I have found the “automatic” settings in most modern cars to be somewhat problematic because they default to using recirculating air.
If one is able to ensure that fresh air only is used for the HVAC, perhaps the window fogging/frosting will be minimized.
Edit: @R P beat me to the punch.
I have found the “automatic” settings in most modern cars to be somewhat problematic because they default to using recirculating air.
If one is able to ensure that fresh air only is used for the HVAC, perhaps the window fogging/frosting will be minimized.
Edit: @R P beat me to the punch.
George Davidson
Active Member
The windows are not frosted up before setting on the road. The car is sheltered and preheated.
Opening a window at -40 and 110 km/hr is not possible. Give it a try and you will understand.
Stopping breathing could help. Thank you for not suggesting that.
It is the combination of 110 km/hr speed and the temperature of -40C.
It results in a windchill temperature of -70C on the windows.
The "FRONT" does good job on the front windshield (though not in the corners) and clears just enough of the front side windows to see the mirrors.
The "FRONT" is the most powerful airflow as you may have noticed. Powerful enough to clear fog and frost.
Other airflow, especially the one most needed for us - the combination of up & down (windshield & feet) is not powerful enough.
We need to cycle between the FRONT and the combined every several minutes.
Kona is also missing having airflow on rear side windows.
As well as heated rear seats on which children are seated. At least in 2019 model.
George Davidson
Active Member
We never use "recirculate". No need for that on Hwy-16 as the traffic is minimal and cars have got hundreds of meters in between before entering Edmonton all the time.
I have never experienced defaulting to "recirculate". I have to push it manually. It never got activated by any other settings. That is my experience of how it works in my Kona.
Domenick
Well-Known Member
Hi all. Just deleted some posts to keep the atmosphere here pleasant.
Please remember, if someone posts something you feel is offensive or maybe just uncomfortable with, please feel free to inbox me. If a particular member just rubs you the wrong way, you can always tap on their avatar and choose the "ignore' option.
Our Kona Electric sub-forum has been a pretty great and helpful place, full of good people. Let's keep that spirit going as we move into 2022.
Please remember, if someone posts something you feel is offensive or maybe just uncomfortable with, please feel free to inbox me. If a particular member just rubs you the wrong way, you can always tap on their avatar and choose the "ignore' option.
Our Kona Electric sub-forum has been a pretty great and helpful place, full of good people. Let's keep that spirit going as we move into 2022.
George Davidson
Active Member
Driving at -40C at 110 km/hr on a highway makes the windchill to be around-70C - not only for the front windshield but for the whole body of the car. Some parts of the car are more exposed than others but at windchill -70C it may not matter much.
The parts of the body which are not warmed up by heated airflow from inside will get fog and frost accumulated on them. Known areas - the whole rear side windows, most of the front side windows, corners of the front windshield.
The FRONT button airflow is really powerful and cleans up the front windshield (though not its corners) and small front parts of the front side windows that are needed to see the mirrors.
For my family's needs and likely others living in the Prairies, NWT or Yukon, and driving at highway speeds it would be useful to have an equivalent of the FRONT button airflow intensity for the combined up & down (windshield & feet) airflow.
The current intensity of the combined up & down airflow is not sufficient to keep our feet warm and have the front windshield defrosted at the same time. The windchill of -70 is powerful.
On some occasions, we put on all the gear (snow pants, hats, mittens) and we stay like that.
The children on the rear seats do not have the luxury of heated seats and the heated airflow is not even directed to the rear seats at times as it needs to be directed at the front windshield. With full occupancy we cycle between three modes - FRONT, combined up & down (windshield & feet), central chest airflow (for children on rear seats).
I am not going to mention in detail that the airflow is kept at the temp +27C as it is the only temperature able to counter the -70C windchill on the front windshield. Some may understand. Some may not. We do not say "shut up we need to save electricity for the range" to the children when they say they are cold.
Possible suggestions for Hyundai designers to consider - at the Hyundai Kona EV price point (which in our case was CAD51,999 with financing CAD66,000) - could be:
I am not sure those ideas ever get materialized. When you read that Ioniq 5 does not have a rear windscreen wiper you start doubting Hyundai designers.
Perhaps somebody living in the above-mentioned cold climate areas may find it useful in cases such as buying an EV and choosing the one right for their needs.
In our car, we have got sleeping bags and more clothing in case something happens. We do not want to freeze (to death). The distances are distances. We leave our small rural town and there is not much on that 90 km commute to Edmonton which we could use as an emergency shelter.
Since Monday, there are still cars (some on the roofs or sides) in the median strip of Hwy-16, which have not been towed away. There are not enough towing trucks available at the moment. It is Thursday afternoon.
Do I complain about it? Yes, a little. But I live with it. I am trying to be ready (hopefully) for this part of the year. It is part of our lives here.
But it does not freak me that much as the lack of understanding of some people.
If somebody on this forum wants to communicate with me, please, do treat me as equal to you. I will treat you the same way. I do not have to be here. Sometimes it is better to be away from people than to deal with them. The community needs to be worth it.
We drive 60,000 - 70,000 km a year (5,000 - 7,000 km/month). Depending on the shifts at the ICU of the UofA Hospital.
Four more years of financing the car. By that time we will be close to half a million kilometers. Driving it from +35C to -40C. It is our main car.
We already had one battery replaced. It died in April 2021 at 135,000 km on the odometer. The first two months of being bricked at the dealership parking lot, the issue was not classified as the battery safety recall. It was classified as r0183 only in June 2021.
We got the car back in October 2021.
We still get the message in our Bluelink apps: "Safety Warning Due to a battery safety issue identified with your vehicle, the maximum charge limit to your vehicle has been limited to 80%. Please, ensure your charge limit does not exceed 80%. Tap learn more for more details."
We asked Hyundai to have it fixed. They said 5 - 10 business days. It has been months.
We just suck it up but not sure if our next car is going to be from Hyundai Canada.
When somebody starts defending Hyundai and pointing in our direction that we are the ones to blame it does freak me out. When a Hyundai customer support staff (it was not Roman) when discussing the dead battery tells you that "you drive too much" you go silent not knowing what to respond to them.
When asking others here to join forces against Hyundai Canada and push for getting new warranties for our new batteries everybody goes silent or they tell you that you are on your own.
So we have a new battery but the old battery warranty got transferred to the new battery. Now we have a new battery with only 15,000 km of warranty left on it. As you know the warranty is 8 yrs / 160,000 km whichever comes first.
The parts of the body which are not warmed up by heated airflow from inside will get fog and frost accumulated on them. Known areas - the whole rear side windows, most of the front side windows, corners of the front windshield.
The FRONT button airflow is really powerful and cleans up the front windshield (though not its corners) and small front parts of the front side windows that are needed to see the mirrors.
For my family's needs and likely others living in the Prairies, NWT or Yukon, and driving at highway speeds it would be useful to have an equivalent of the FRONT button airflow intensity for the combined up & down (windshield & feet) airflow.
The current intensity of the combined up & down airflow is not sufficient to keep our feet warm and have the front windshield defrosted at the same time. The windchill of -70 is powerful.
On some occasions, we put on all the gear (snow pants, hats, mittens) and we stay like that.
The children on the rear seats do not have the luxury of heated seats and the heated airflow is not even directed to the rear seats at times as it needs to be directed at the front windshield. With full occupancy we cycle between three modes - FRONT, combined up & down (windshield & feet), central chest airflow (for children on rear seats).
I am not going to mention in detail that the airflow is kept at the temp +27C as it is the only temperature able to counter the -70C windchill on the front windshield. Some may understand. Some may not. We do not say "shut up we need to save electricity for the range" to the children when they say they are cold.
Possible suggestions for Hyundai designers to consider - at the Hyundai Kona EV price point (which in our case was CAD51,999 with financing CAD66,000) - could be:
- separate heated air duct/tunnel for the rear seats
- heated airflow for the rear side windows as we do look over our shoulders to check what is there (the currently only working way of "defrosting" rear side windows is to ask the children to scratch the frost with their nails, for some reason they do not want to do it all the time)
- heated rear seats
- an air heat pump more powerful than the current one, or two separate ones (one for the front and the other for the rear) as the pump's ability to extract heat from the cold outside air drops more and more the colder it gets. It is my understanding that around and below -25C the current air heat pumps do not work very well and it is better to use electric resistance heating
I am not sure those ideas ever get materialized. When you read that Ioniq 5 does not have a rear windscreen wiper you start doubting Hyundai designers.
Perhaps somebody living in the above-mentioned cold climate areas may find it useful in cases such as buying an EV and choosing the one right for their needs.
In our car, we have got sleeping bags and more clothing in case something happens. We do not want to freeze (to death). The distances are distances. We leave our small rural town and there is not much on that 90 km commute to Edmonton which we could use as an emergency shelter.
Since Monday, there are still cars (some on the roofs or sides) in the median strip of Hwy-16, which have not been towed away. There are not enough towing trucks available at the moment. It is Thursday afternoon.
Do I complain about it? Yes, a little. But I live with it. I am trying to be ready (hopefully) for this part of the year. It is part of our lives here.
But it does not freak me that much as the lack of understanding of some people.
If somebody on this forum wants to communicate with me, please, do treat me as equal to you. I will treat you the same way. I do not have to be here. Sometimes it is better to be away from people than to deal with them. The community needs to be worth it.
We drive 60,000 - 70,000 km a year (5,000 - 7,000 km/month). Depending on the shifts at the ICU of the UofA Hospital.
Four more years of financing the car. By that time we will be close to half a million kilometers. Driving it from +35C to -40C. It is our main car.
We already had one battery replaced. It died in April 2021 at 135,000 km on the odometer. The first two months of being bricked at the dealership parking lot, the issue was not classified as the battery safety recall. It was classified as r0183 only in June 2021.
We got the car back in October 2021.
We still get the message in our Bluelink apps: "Safety Warning Due to a battery safety issue identified with your vehicle, the maximum charge limit to your vehicle has been limited to 80%. Please, ensure your charge limit does not exceed 80%. Tap learn more for more details."
We asked Hyundai to have it fixed. They said 5 - 10 business days. It has been months.
We just suck it up but not sure if our next car is going to be from Hyundai Canada.
When somebody starts defending Hyundai and pointing in our direction that we are the ones to blame it does freak me out. When a Hyundai customer support staff (it was not Roman) when discussing the dead battery tells you that "you drive too much" you go silent not knowing what to respond to them.
When asking others here to join forces against Hyundai Canada and push for getting new warranties for our new batteries everybody goes silent or they tell you that you are on your own.
So we have a new battery but the old battery warranty got transferred to the new battery. Now we have a new battery with only 15,000 km of warranty left on it. As you know the warranty is 8 yrs / 160,000 km whichever comes first.
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