KenG
Member
The June US Clarity Phev number is 1450... less than last month but enough to pass the Volt at 1339....The Volt Forum is not happy.
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June Sales
- Thread starter KenG
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dstrauss
Well-Known Member
I just don't get the lack of sales volume. If you are an Accord fan, and you qualify for the $7500 tax credit (having at least $7500 owed in taxes) this should be a slam dunk purchase. With the exception of the Infotainment System, my Touring is much nicer inside with a much better and more quiet ride (granted this is very subjective of me); HOWEVER, now for the objective argument - the Clarity Touring will cost you (with destination charges) $29,995 compared to $34,695 for the Accord Hybrid Touring, and those electrons will just keep piling up the savings.
PHEV Newbie
Well-Known Member
There should be something else that Volt owners are unhappy about and that is Clarity kicking its butt in real world EV range and HV mpg (also shamed the Prius Prime). A quote from the recent Car and Driver review ( https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-test-review ):
The EPA estimates the plug-in Clarity’s electric-only range at 48 miles; we went 41 miles at 75 mph before the engine fired up. That makes the Clarity our new plug-in champ, dethroning the Chevy Volt, which went 37 miles before its gas engine kicked in. For those curious about the Toyota Prius Prime, we’ve run that model on the same highway loop and achieved a maximum of 20 miles on electricity alone.
We also measured 46 mpg on the highway in hybrid mode for the Clarity, versus 39 mpg for the Volt. In this measure, the Clarity fell just short of the Prius Prime, which returned 49 mpg (in Premium trim) and 47 mpg (Advanced and Plus trims).
That the Clarity is a much larger car than both the Volt and Prius Prime makes it a remarkable achievement in refinement and efficiency.
1. Folks want an SUV.
2. Over half of Americans don't make enough, or have a 401k from a former employer to do a Roth conversion, to owe that much in taxes to use any or all of the tax credit.
3. Not able to charge the car at home.
4. Don't understand the technology or question the reliability and longevity, including the traction battery, over the long run.
5. Didn't know the car existed.
I don't think these vehicles will hit the main stream until the questions about the traction battery capacity, longevity are put to rest. It's going to take some more time until the first Chevy Volt and Nissan Leaf reaches 10 to 15 years and we get some answers.
Hopefully, a few of these cars will show up at the "National Drive Electric Week" shows this September and more folks will be come educated as to the vehicle's benefits.
https://driveelectricweek.org/
Highland58
Member
My Clarity was one of those 1450 - June 11th - and I traded in a Volt to do it. Sorry Volt Forum.
A lot of people buy cars for style. One person at work and their spouse got new cars. They got custom black out vehicles, everything black, a midsize truck and a small Jeep. Despite their stop and go commute which probably gets 25 mpg at best in these vehicles.
I love the Clarity that I bought. No problems at all with it. I have solar panels, and 90% of the miles I put on the vehicle is in EV mode. So, I basically get fuel for free. But, this car isn't going to sell, and I don't think Honda is really going to market the Clarity. I can see the Clarity being abandoned after a couple of years. People in the U.S. just don't want a PHEV or a BEV (unless it is a Tesla). Below is a link to Honda sales in June.
http://www.hondanews.com/releases/a...une-sales-records-on-strength-of-light-trucks
In June 2018, Honda sold 146,563 vehicles in the U.S., among which were 31,345 Civics, 26,726 Accords, 4,810 Fits, 33,306 CR-Vs, and 1,575 Claritys of all types. The Clarity is basically a vehicle that Honda sells at a loss to be California compliant for emission.
From the prices paid posts, and from my own experience, Honda is now discounting the Clarity by about $3,000 from MSRP, because of lackluster sales, but the sales of the Clarity seem to still be slowing down. The Clarity that I bought was sitting on the lot for about 90 days, and the dealer that I bought it from had 70 Claritys in stock.
I wish more Chevy Volts and Bolts would sell, but the U.S. public does not want those cars.
http://www.hondanews.com/releases/a...une-sales-records-on-strength-of-light-trucks
In June 2018, Honda sold 146,563 vehicles in the U.S., among which were 31,345 Civics, 26,726 Accords, 4,810 Fits, 33,306 CR-Vs, and 1,575 Claritys of all types. The Clarity is basically a vehicle that Honda sells at a loss to be California compliant for emission.
From the prices paid posts, and from my own experience, Honda is now discounting the Clarity by about $3,000 from MSRP, because of lackluster sales, but the sales of the Clarity seem to still be slowing down. The Clarity that I bought was sitting on the lot for about 90 days, and the dealer that I bought it from had 70 Claritys in stock.
I wish more Chevy Volts and Bolts would sell, but the U.S. public does not want those cars.
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jdonalds
Well-Known Member
Where do you find the data that Honda sells the Clarity at a loss?
Every Fiat 500e is being sold at a $20,000 loss
http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/14759/fiat-chrysler-loses-20000-for-every-fiat-500e-it-sells
In Q1 2018, Tesla loses $8,000 for every Model 3 produced
https://seekingalpha.com/article/41...g-changes-model-3-currently-loses-8k-per-unit
If Tesla sells base Model 3s for $35,000, Tesla would die.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/21/elo...ice-model-3-now-would-cause-tesla-to-die.html
When the Volt first came out, GM was losing $50,000 per Volt sold
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michel...ng-50000-on-each-chevrolet-volt/#f81ed562cc99
As of 2016, GM was losing $9,000 per Bolt sold.
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dollars-per-car-on-chevy-bolt.html
Honda is selling a lot less Claritys than Tesla is selling Model 3s. Model 3s cost more than Claritys, and Tesla is still losing money for each one sold.
You think Honda is selling Claritys at a profit? I don't. Honda isn't putting out the gross margin on the sale of the Clarity, but I can't see them being any different than the other electric / PHEV car manufacturers, in other words, selling them at a loss.
http://www.thedrive.com/sheetmetal/14759/fiat-chrysler-loses-20000-for-every-fiat-500e-it-sells
In Q1 2018, Tesla loses $8,000 for every Model 3 produced
https://seekingalpha.com/article/41...g-changes-model-3-currently-loses-8k-per-unit
If Tesla sells base Model 3s for $35,000, Tesla would die.
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/21/elo...ice-model-3-now-would-cause-tesla-to-die.html
When the Volt first came out, GM was losing $50,000 per Volt sold
https://www.forbes.com/sites/michel...ng-50000-on-each-chevrolet-volt/#f81ed562cc99
As of 2016, GM was losing $9,000 per Bolt sold.
https://www.cnbc.com/2016/11/30/gm-stands-to-lose-9000-dollars-per-car-on-chevy-bolt.html
Honda is selling a lot less Claritys than Tesla is selling Model 3s. Model 3s cost more than Claritys, and Tesla is still losing money for each one sold.
You think Honda is selling Claritys at a profit? I don't. Honda isn't putting out the gross margin on the sale of the Clarity, but I can't see them being any different than the other electric / PHEV car manufacturers, in other words, selling them at a loss.
jdonalds
Well-Known Member
I don't know if Honda has a profit or loss on each Clarity or not. I'm just interested in the data.
PHEV Newbie
Well-Known Member
Kent,
You're likely correct. All the metal in the Clarity is either ultra-high strength steel or aluminum on a platform unique to the Clarity. That together is generally reserved for the most expensive niche vehicles. The Li ion battery by itself costs a bomb. Other than that, most of the car is also shared with other Honda cars so that helps. Given that they will build and sell so few of them, the economy of scale doesn't come into play so much. I suspect each Clarity is sold at a loss but not as bad as Teslas.
Moving people into these cars is what it's all about. Kind of an EV 2.0 … we've had more than a decade of hybrids now, and while BEV isn't too far behind, even conventional hybrids are still a huge jump for most buyers. So getting the new to EV/PHEV owners into these cars is going to pay off for automakers in the long run.
As of today, we all bemoan the lack of expertise and experience with these vehicles at sales and service venues. As time goes by, though, cars like the Clarity should help increase the number of knowledgable techs and sales people. Once owners know what to expect from their PHEVs and demand that in their new cars, we should start seeing gassers rolling out of the dealership less and less of the time. If the automakers can get these systems into SUVs and trucks, we'll see real changes in the energy used to power the cars we buy and sell.
Getting the prices of these cars down to a place (without incentives) where buyers will part with their money seems like the biggest mountain to climb for automakers right now. With Clarity, regardless of how much we each ended up paying for our car, we all got a great deal.
As of today, we all bemoan the lack of expertise and experience with these vehicles at sales and service venues. As time goes by, though, cars like the Clarity should help increase the number of knowledgable techs and sales people. Once owners know what to expect from their PHEVs and demand that in their new cars, we should start seeing gassers rolling out of the dealership less and less of the time. If the automakers can get these systems into SUVs and trucks, we'll see real changes in the energy used to power the cars we buy and sell.
Getting the prices of these cars down to a place (without incentives) where buyers will part with their money seems like the biggest mountain to climb for automakers right now. With Clarity, regardless of how much we each ended up paying for our car, we all got a great deal.
I agree with all your points bfd. I also don't think they pushed the initial release of the PEV very much and to distinguish it from the all electric and fuel cell models.
I am in Northern California, and bought my Clarity in December 2017. It is now 7 months later, and I am seeing them showing up on the street now
I moved from a 2013 Volt to the 2018 Clarity, and I think that is where a good number of the initial interest will lie because this is a demographic that is familiar with the technology
I am in Northern California, and bought my Clarity in December 2017. It is now 7 months later, and I am seeing them showing up on the street now
I moved from a 2013 Volt to the 2018 Clarity, and I think that is where a good number of the initial interest will lie because this is a demographic that is familiar with the technology
The issue is R&D, it is very costly to develop new models and if you don't sell high volume you won't recoup the costs. While Honda might lose money on the Clarity platform, the technology should help future high volume models be profitable. You see them doing that now, sharing tech between platforms. The Insight, Accord use same drivetrain as Clarity PHEV, and rumors of a Pilot PHEV coming as well.
I dislike these analysts claiming Tesla (or others) loses $x per car sold. This is used as ammo to say electric cars are terrible money wasters that are only around from government subsidies. The issue is Tesla and some others have positive margins making the cars, they are negative because of R&D, expansion, etc. To put the loss per car is misleading.
To be fair though, I think full battery electric will be the most cost effective as you are simpler and don't need both systems. PHEV will help people transition though, those that might not want to go all in.
Without volume, you are right.
But think about Prius, Toyota lost a huge chunk of money at beginning, they don’t make a lot of money now with Prius either. But the hybrid technology has been shared with many models Toyota is selling.
One reason why Clarity is not selling in large volume is because of its limited production from Japan. When Honda announced the Clarity, they had plan to sell only 75,000 over four years. That works out to about 1500+ cars per month, which seems to be in line with the past few monthly sale data.
http://www.wardsauto.com/2017-new-y...etails-clarity-phev-ev-targets-75000-us-sales
http://www.wardsauto.com/2017-new-y...etails-clarity-phev-ev-targets-75000-us-sales
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I went to the dealer to fix HV estimate and told them to put a sign on the car that the price was really 10K less in MA after rebates. They said "oh, maybe we should do that". ????