The Gadgeteer
Active Member
Considering solar, any advice is welcomed.
Is Solar and the Clarity a match made in heaven?
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KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
Here is what I would tell you after going through this and having a happy ending to going solar.
Educate yourself on solar PV so you won’t be at the mercy of solar companies. Solar for Dummies is a good place to start. Also Internet. The more you know the more informed decision you can make concerning ROI and what brands, system type, and size are most cost effective for your application.
Use PVwatts to calculate production and size your system. Use your last year of bills and add add your car charging. Energy saving strategies are smarter to consider before adding solar and can reduce the kW you install saving you money there. Most utilities will perform an energy audit for you. The analogy is that if your boat is leaking, it’s better to fix the leak rather than buy a bigger bilge pump.
Most solar companies use Aurora software and PVwatts lets you double check their calculations. The old garbage in, garbage out rule applies. Remember, the solar company wants to make money by selling you as much as they can (with rare exceptions) and you want to be as cost effective as possible. These may sometimes conflict.
Get as many quotes as you can. Steer away from large national companies that live on advertising and hard salesmanship. Most local companies will be cheaper, more careful, and have better service. Ask for contact information on some of their installations and see how happy their clients are. Don’t depend on a single friend of a friend’s recommendation as you don’t know if they made a good choice or not.
Get everything in writing. Repeat that 10 times. Get warranties through the manufacturer of the equipment (panels, rails, inverter) not the installer as they may go out of business. Note that mfg’s warranties are for parts only, not labor. Since most electronics tend to fail in infancy, I got my solar installer to throw in a 5 year service contract to cover any labor costs.
Just as in car buying when you play the dealers off each other to get the lowest price, do the same thing with the different solar companies. Compare apples to apples and get the lowest cost per installed kW of total panels. Ascertain what is the best cost per kW installed in your area and go for that.
Look carefully at how the ROI is calculated and don’t fall for any pie in the sky predictions. For instance make sure they are using reasonable predictions as to weather, shading, utility price hikes, and system degradation. I made mine not use the projected increase in value of my house since not enough solar houses have sold in my area to know what amount it adds. If you plan on moving soon you probably won’t get any savings. But long term you can save a lot ($55,000 projected in my case).
Be aware that the Federal 30% tax credit reduces to 26% in 2020. And the credit will roll over to future years (as long as the credit is in force) unlike the EV credit. Also, usually it’s cheaper to install a whole system at once rather than add to it later.
Choose your equipment carefully with an eye to efficiency and warranties. Even though solar warranties may be hard to enforce (like a claim a panel is not producing as much as it should) they are an indication of quality.
That being said, PV panels from reputable companies are pretty much bullet proof so choosing a good installer is probably more important than what panel you go with.
The above are general recommendations that I feel comfortable that the majority of knowledgeable people would agree with. The below are my personal opinions and biases.
I like SolarEdge inverters and optimizers. My Goggle-Fu says micro inverter’s fail more often than optimizers. I consider SunPower panels to be over priced but they are good panels. LGs are also good panels. I choose Panasonic panels as the best bang for the buck. They were at a good price point, had good starting efficiency, low yearly degradation giving higher production over 25 yrs, better efficiency when hot (you make most of your kW in the summer), and they had a 25 yr product warranty (not just a production warranty). So if they fail, I get a new one for the next 25 years and Panasonic is a large and diversified company that I expect to be around in the long term. I also got an extended warranty from SolarEdge so now all parts of my system are warranted for 25 yrs.
First I got the price/kW I wanted and then I made the installer throw in some extras if he wanted my business. For example, I got him to pay for the SolarEdge 25 yr warranty, hook up my monitoring by Ethernet cable instead of WiFi, install the inverter in garage instead of outside, throw in a 5 yr service contract, and install the SolarEdge electric meter (gives me more detailed reports) and whole house surge protector for just the cost of the parts with no labor charge.
So even though I got $1.60/installed kW (After tax credit), my break even point is still 9 years since in coal country all I got was the 30% Federal tax credit. Yep, I got an insanely low price by educating myself, bargaining hard, and it helped that I was the first installation in Lexington for my out of town solar company who wanted to get their foot in the door of my local market.
Hope this is helpful and you can PM me for more info or my phone # if that would help.
Educate yourself on solar PV so you won’t be at the mercy of solar companies. Solar for Dummies is a good place to start. Also Internet. The more you know the more informed decision you can make concerning ROI and what brands, system type, and size are most cost effective for your application.
Use PVwatts to calculate production and size your system. Use your last year of bills and add add your car charging. Energy saving strategies are smarter to consider before adding solar and can reduce the kW you install saving you money there. Most utilities will perform an energy audit for you. The analogy is that if your boat is leaking, it’s better to fix the leak rather than buy a bigger bilge pump.
Most solar companies use Aurora software and PVwatts lets you double check their calculations. The old garbage in, garbage out rule applies. Remember, the solar company wants to make money by selling you as much as they can (with rare exceptions) and you want to be as cost effective as possible. These may sometimes conflict.
Get as many quotes as you can. Steer away from large national companies that live on advertising and hard salesmanship. Most local companies will be cheaper, more careful, and have better service. Ask for contact information on some of their installations and see how happy their clients are. Don’t depend on a single friend of a friend’s recommendation as you don’t know if they made a good choice or not.
Get everything in writing. Repeat that 10 times. Get warranties through the manufacturer of the equipment (panels, rails, inverter) not the installer as they may go out of business. Note that mfg’s warranties are for parts only, not labor. Since most electronics tend to fail in infancy, I got my solar installer to throw in a 5 year service contract to cover any labor costs.
Just as in car buying when you play the dealers off each other to get the lowest price, do the same thing with the different solar companies. Compare apples to apples and get the lowest cost per installed kW of total panels. Ascertain what is the best cost per kW installed in your area and go for that.
Look carefully at how the ROI is calculated and don’t fall for any pie in the sky predictions. For instance make sure they are using reasonable predictions as to weather, shading, utility price hikes, and system degradation. I made mine not use the projected increase in value of my house since not enough solar houses have sold in my area to know what amount it adds. If you plan on moving soon you probably won’t get any savings. But long term you can save a lot ($55,000 projected in my case).
Be aware that the Federal 30% tax credit reduces to 26% in 2020. And the credit will roll over to future years (as long as the credit is in force) unlike the EV credit. Also, usually it’s cheaper to install a whole system at once rather than add to it later.
Choose your equipment carefully with an eye to efficiency and warranties. Even though solar warranties may be hard to enforce (like a claim a panel is not producing as much as it should) they are an indication of quality.
That being said, PV panels from reputable companies are pretty much bullet proof so choosing a good installer is probably more important than what panel you go with.
The above are general recommendations that I feel comfortable that the majority of knowledgeable people would agree with. The below are my personal opinions and biases.
I like SolarEdge inverters and optimizers. My Goggle-Fu says micro inverter’s fail more often than optimizers. I consider SunPower panels to be over priced but they are good panels. LGs are also good panels. I choose Panasonic panels as the best bang for the buck. They were at a good price point, had good starting efficiency, low yearly degradation giving higher production over 25 yrs, better efficiency when hot (you make most of your kW in the summer), and they had a 25 yr product warranty (not just a production warranty). So if they fail, I get a new one for the next 25 years and Panasonic is a large and diversified company that I expect to be around in the long term. I also got an extended warranty from SolarEdge so now all parts of my system are warranted for 25 yrs.
First I got the price/kW I wanted and then I made the installer throw in some extras if he wanted my business. For example, I got him to pay for the SolarEdge 25 yr warranty, hook up my monitoring by Ethernet cable instead of WiFi, install the inverter in garage instead of outside, throw in a 5 yr service contract, and install the SolarEdge electric meter (gives me more detailed reports) and whole house surge protector for just the cost of the parts with no labor charge.
So even though I got $1.60/installed kW (After tax credit), my break even point is still 9 years since in coal country all I got was the 30% Federal tax credit. Yep, I got an insanely low price by educating myself, bargaining hard, and it helped that I was the first installation in Lexington for my out of town solar company who wanted to get their foot in the door of my local market.
Hope this is helpful and you can PM me for more info or my phone # if that would help.
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jdonalds
Well-Known Member
That depends. Do you live in an area with a lot of sunny days? Do you have sufficient roof space or ground area for the number of panels you'd need? Does your property provide a good angle like a south facing roof. What kind of grid-tie regulations are in your area? If grid-tied what are the rate plans? Are you going to lease the system, DYI, buy it with cash, or get a loan?
In 2017 I tried to answer all of these questions and more for our family. Turns out we live in Redding, the 2nd sunniest city in the United States. We have a south facing roof with sufficient area for 20 panels. 20 panels would be enough to supply the entire house + an EV car. Our city demands grid-tie; no off grid allowed. We have a rate plan that pays us exactly the same amount for power we send into the grid as we pay for power from the grid. So the grid acts like a battery for us. This city scenario is contracted for 25 years.
The only down side for us was we couldn't put the panels on the ground as that area we call ours is really an easement with the city and they won't allow us to put a structure on it. This forced us to replace the roof before we installed the solar. A large extra cost that could have been avoided for perhaps 5 more years if we didn't put the solar system in.
When I got done with all of the research it turned out our payback period would be about 12 years. But adding in an EV would re-balance the scales and drop our payback period to about 6-8 years. So in our case the only plan that made sense was house+car for the solar system. We installed at the end of 2017, coincident with the purchase of the Clarity. Comparing the year 2017 with 2018, which was the first full year of solar+car, our home electric bill added with our car gas savings resulted in $2,500 less than 2017. It is a win.
We had a very heavy rain season which starts in October here. Many cloudy days prevented good solar production, of course the angle of the sun in winter also reduces production. But starting about April 11 our skies have switched to full sun or close to it. This being spring we don't need heat nor AC so we are running the house 100% on solar, plus charging the Clarity every day, and have power left over to pump into the grid. It remains to be seen if our electricity cost will be zero this year but I doubt it. Still our system generates close to a megawatt each month.
Everyone's situation is different. You'll have to learn all about solar, the options, the costs, etc. to make your decision.
Another factor for us is this. We are retired. We have a nest egg that is mostly invested in the stock market. If I take money out of the investments to install solar I'll lose the growth of that money over many years going forward. However moving that money out of our portfolio removes it from the hands of a cyber attack on our accounts. Identity theft is real but the solar system money is removed from the internet and is now on the roof. Much more difficult to steal. The investment saves us money for petrol and electricity, and protects us from gas prices rising (like lately it's about $4/gallon here). Gains from solar are not taxable. Gains from the stock market are taxable. So it may not be the best investment but it is a solid investment.
In the end the decision wasn't all about savings. I'm also not a big time tree hugger but do care about the environment. It was more about moving forward with new technology. I really do like where we ended up.
Consider this. What if you sell the house and move? We plan to stay here the rest of our lives. But selling a house with a solar system on a lease greatly complicates things. Selling a house with solar that you've paid for may not have been a good investment if you don't live there long enough for it to pay for itself. You may be able to increase the selling price of your house but perhaps not enough for it to have been worth while.
I won't bother giving you numbers because every situation is different.
Good luck with your decision. By the way we started the process in September of 2017 and switched the solar system on at the very end of December FYI.
In 2017 I tried to answer all of these questions and more for our family. Turns out we live in Redding, the 2nd sunniest city in the United States. We have a south facing roof with sufficient area for 20 panels. 20 panels would be enough to supply the entire house + an EV car. Our city demands grid-tie; no off grid allowed. We have a rate plan that pays us exactly the same amount for power we send into the grid as we pay for power from the grid. So the grid acts like a battery for us. This city scenario is contracted for 25 years.
The only down side for us was we couldn't put the panels on the ground as that area we call ours is really an easement with the city and they won't allow us to put a structure on it. This forced us to replace the roof before we installed the solar. A large extra cost that could have been avoided for perhaps 5 more years if we didn't put the solar system in.
When I got done with all of the research it turned out our payback period would be about 12 years. But adding in an EV would re-balance the scales and drop our payback period to about 6-8 years. So in our case the only plan that made sense was house+car for the solar system. We installed at the end of 2017, coincident with the purchase of the Clarity. Comparing the year 2017 with 2018, which was the first full year of solar+car, our home electric bill added with our car gas savings resulted in $2,500 less than 2017. It is a win.
We had a very heavy rain season which starts in October here. Many cloudy days prevented good solar production, of course the angle of the sun in winter also reduces production. But starting about April 11 our skies have switched to full sun or close to it. This being spring we don't need heat nor AC so we are running the house 100% on solar, plus charging the Clarity every day, and have power left over to pump into the grid. It remains to be seen if our electricity cost will be zero this year but I doubt it. Still our system generates close to a megawatt each month.
Everyone's situation is different. You'll have to learn all about solar, the options, the costs, etc. to make your decision.
Another factor for us is this. We are retired. We have a nest egg that is mostly invested in the stock market. If I take money out of the investments to install solar I'll lose the growth of that money over many years going forward. However moving that money out of our portfolio removes it from the hands of a cyber attack on our accounts. Identity theft is real but the solar system money is removed from the internet and is now on the roof. Much more difficult to steal. The investment saves us money for petrol and electricity, and protects us from gas prices rising (like lately it's about $4/gallon here). Gains from solar are not taxable. Gains from the stock market are taxable. So it may not be the best investment but it is a solid investment.
In the end the decision wasn't all about savings. I'm also not a big time tree hugger but do care about the environment. It was more about moving forward with new technology. I really do like where we ended up.
Consider this. What if you sell the house and move? We plan to stay here the rest of our lives. But selling a house with a solar system on a lease greatly complicates things. Selling a house with solar that you've paid for may not have been a good investment if you don't live there long enough for it to pay for itself. You may be able to increase the selling price of your house but perhaps not enough for it to have been worth while.
I won't bother giving you numbers because every situation is different.
Good luck with your decision. By the way we started the process in September of 2017 and switched the solar system on at the very end of December FYI.
We just decided to install solar here near Boston Massachusetts. Most of the decision points have little to do with the car or amount of sun, the solar power remains an industry [dominated by] incentives. In Massachusetts, in addition to the federal tax 30% writeoff (which includes preparation like trimming or cutting down trees) we have: $1000 state tax credit, roughly $1000 per year times 10 years incentive for addingcapacity to the grid, and “net metering “ meaning that we don’t need to worry about battery storage to even out the production of electricity.
Also, we just had our roof redone. No solar on any roof that will need replacing.
We also live in a high-electric-cost state. Given this, an 11.7 kW system would cost us in the low 20s after rebates and give back around 3.5 per year.
I figured a break even point at around 7-8 years. After that it becomes a very good investment.
So a lot depends on your local characteristics and incentives. Note that the ROI that the solar companies offer is designed to compare different investment strategies if you were already planning on spending the money, and are just deciding on what. Does not include the comparison vs keeping your money and earning interest.
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Also, we just had our roof redone. No solar on any roof that will need replacing.
We also live in a high-electric-cost state. Given this, an 11.7 kW system would cost us in the low 20s after rebates and give back around 3.5 per year.
I figured a break even point at around 7-8 years. After that it becomes a very good investment.
So a lot depends on your local characteristics and incentives. Note that the ROI that the solar companies offer is designed to compare different investment strategies if you were already planning on spending the money, and are just deciding on what. Does not include the comparison vs keeping your money and earning interest.
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Oops, that’s “an industry DOMINATED BY” incentives not “damaged by”. Darn autocorrect. Will try to edit before I get flamed to kingdom come.
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fotomoto
Active Member
Agreed.
For me in sunny south Texas, solar seems like a no brainer but I would have to chop down two giant oak trees that shade the house on the south side. The irony of cutting down magnificent trees to "go green" was not lost on me. Plus we don't plan to live at this location long enough for it to really make sense//cents (the loss in property value by losing the trees would negate much of the increase in home value of a solar system). Finally, we can choose our electric providers here and many offer 100% solar and/or green power; granted they are making the profits off "free" energy but the homeowner assumes no risk or upfront costs. As I pointed out in another thread, I went with a free nights program that targets EV owners and others to use more off-peak power which in my case is mainly provided by wind.
Candice
Active Member
We had 21 panels installed 5 years ago with an approximate 5 year ROI after federal, state and NYSERDA rebates in NY. We paid about 25% out of pocket costs and we used and additional incentive for a 1 year no interest loan so we could have time to file our taxes and use the rebate money to pay back the loan. This was way before an electric car was on our radar. Ours is a ground mound because we have too many trees shading our roof and we were not going to cut them down.
After owning the Clarity for a little under a year, we decided to add 6 more panels to offset the additional electric usage with about a 6 year ROI. Unfortunately, incentives are decreasing so it is better to make a decision while you can get as much back as possible. Our solar company did all of the work for us including applying for permits, getting approval from the utility company, apply for the NYSERDA rebate etc. We also own ours where some companies lease them.
We had to have our electric meter replaced to one that went forward and backwards so we could put solar electric back into the grid and it is fun to watch the numbers go backwards on the meter in the spring and summer. We were told not to bother with getting a battery because the price was such that it would not be cost effective so when the power goes out, we have nothing more than any of our neighbors do but it rarely happens.
Our climate is such that most of Dec/Jan/Feb is gray skies and high heat costs. Spring and fall Mar/Apr/Oct/Nov we produce more than what we use especially if the temps don't require heat and/or A/C. From May thru Sept we produce quite a bit and if it is not too hot (average temp is 70-75) then we don't have to run the A/C so the solar credits really add up.
Here is an overhead of our ground mount before the new panels were added last week.
After owning the Clarity for a little under a year, we decided to add 6 more panels to offset the additional electric usage with about a 6 year ROI. Unfortunately, incentives are decreasing so it is better to make a decision while you can get as much back as possible. Our solar company did all of the work for us including applying for permits, getting approval from the utility company, apply for the NYSERDA rebate etc. We also own ours where some companies lease them.
We had to have our electric meter replaced to one that went forward and backwards so we could put solar electric back into the grid and it is fun to watch the numbers go backwards on the meter in the spring and summer. We were told not to bother with getting a battery because the price was such that it would not be cost effective so when the power goes out, we have nothing more than any of our neighbors do but it rarely happens.
Our climate is such that most of Dec/Jan/Feb is gray skies and high heat costs. Spring and fall Mar/Apr/Oct/Nov we produce more than what we use especially if the temps don't require heat and/or A/C. From May thru Sept we produce quite a bit and if it is not too hot (average temp is 70-75) then we don't have to run the A/C so the solar credits really add up.
Here is an overhead of our ground mount before the new panels were added last week.
Sandroad
Well-Known Member
Here is the description of my off the grid system. In my recent first year use report post I summarized that this system provides almost exactly half of the Clarity’s power needs on a annual basis.
https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/solar-charging.2190/#post-17443
This month we are having 7.3 KW of grid-tie solar panels installed on the garage. That will complete our solar investment and the 2 systems combined should supply 100% of the car’s power and about a third of our house power needs.
It’s a great time to invest in solar, for several reasons. Go for it! Just be sure to take the wise counsel of @KentuckyKen and get quotes from several installers. Prices here ranged from $2/watt to $5/watt!
https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/solar-charging.2190/#post-17443
This month we are having 7.3 KW of grid-tie solar panels installed on the garage. That will complete our solar investment and the 2 systems combined should supply 100% of the car’s power and about a third of our house power needs.
It’s a great time to invest in solar, for several reasons. Go for it! Just be sure to take the wise counsel of @KentuckyKen and get quotes from several installers. Prices here ranged from $2/watt to $5/watt!
Ray B
Active Member
The Gadgeteer
Active Member
LegoZ
Active Member
quote for truth. In my case adding panels to fill the branch circuits and boost my output some is as much as installing a brand new system of the same size.
Solar and the Clarity Plug-In Hybrid works great in California. My utility company is Pacific Gas & Electricity and I am on a Time of use Plan in which I sell electricity from the Solar Panels at a much higher rate than when I buy the electricity at night when I charge the Clarity. Bottom line, the panels will pay for itself in 5.5 years. After that, the electricity for the house and gas for the Clarity (or for a different Battery Electric Vehicle) will be free.
The choice of SolarEdge (optimizers) vs. Enphase (microinverters) is a close call. With optimizers there is a series DC connection for High Voltage DC at the roof and down connect. The optimizers solve the Christmas tree light problem, where otherwise a shaded panel interferes to reduce the series string output power. In microinverters, each inverter converts to 240VAC, and they are wired in parallel and provide 240VAC to the panel. There is small controller, but no large inverter near the panel.
I chose the enphase microinverters in part because my preferred highly recommended installer only installs enphase (purchased, not leased). However, I am very happy with it, no failures, 10 year guarantee for no cost on site repair, 30 year guarantee for the LG mono panels (28). There have been no failures since September, 2016.
A general consideration is that if you are doing utility company "Net metering", be careful not to oversize your system, where the utility gives credits in the summer, and lets you "burn" them during the winter, but does not carry over credits year to year. In those states, you might end up with lost credits, typically in March, if you have credits not yet used.
I use the enphase reporting software "Enlighten Manager" and the energy use reporting "envoy" controller (both upgrades), which I really like. Here are some samples from this morning:
Resale is a concern, as others have noted. I too, will likely finish might retirement in this little ranch home. However, if you plan to sell in some years, there is not only the possible complication of a leased or financed solar array, but a lot of potential buyers don't like solar array. The technology will likely change fast too. What feels cutting edge today, may be considered terribly outdated and underperforming in ten years.
I chose the enphase microinverters in part because my preferred highly recommended installer only installs enphase (purchased, not leased). However, I am very happy with it, no failures, 10 year guarantee for no cost on site repair, 30 year guarantee for the LG mono panels (28). There have been no failures since September, 2016.
A general consideration is that if you are doing utility company "Net metering", be careful not to oversize your system, where the utility gives credits in the summer, and lets you "burn" them during the winter, but does not carry over credits year to year. In those states, you might end up with lost credits, typically in March, if you have credits not yet used.
I use the enphase reporting software "Enlighten Manager" and the energy use reporting "envoy" controller (both upgrades), which I really like. Here are some samples from this morning:
Resale is a concern, as others have noted. I too, will likely finish might retirement in this little ranch home. However, if you plan to sell in some years, there is not only the possible complication of a leased or financed solar array, but a lot of potential buyers don't like solar array. The technology will likely change fast too. What feels cutting edge today, may be considered terribly outdated and underperforming in ten years.
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JulianClarity
Active Member
Hi guys,
I recently talked to an agent from Sunrun, he said they don't have micro inverters under each panel, but sun power has, and it limits the max output from 360w per panel to 320w, it is bad. On the other side, I heard from some who already have their system installed saying, micro inverters under each panel is a much have. Who is telling the truth? I tend to believe in the sun power story, because there's no reason for someone to restrict their own abilities without a good reason.
Thanks a lot!
I recently talked to an agent from Sunrun, he said they don't have micro inverters under each panel, but sun power has, and it limits the max output from 360w per panel to 320w, it is bad. On the other side, I heard from some who already have their system installed saying, micro inverters under each panel is a much have. Who is telling the truth? I tend to believe in the sun power story, because there's no reason for someone to restrict their own abilities without a good reason.
Thanks a lot!
LegoZ
Active Member
I have SunPower and am very happy with the system. The panels are a system and should output their rated power. NOW what this company may be doing is telling you the 360w DC panel is putting out 320w AC after it goes through the micro inverter. Ask them what the AC vs DC Power on their system is.
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The Gadgeteer
Active Member
This is all good info.
My main concern is if I finance the systems and my loan cost per month ends up being more than what I would have paid to my electric company. Problem is the numbers are not clear cut. There are NJ SRECs that offset the price for 10 years, the government rebate, the financing, the money not spent to the electric company, and so on and so on.
My main concern is if I finance the systems and my loan cost per month ends up being more than what I would have paid to my electric company. Problem is the numbers are not clear cut. There are NJ SRECs that offset the price for 10 years, the government rebate, the financing, the money not spent to the electric company, and so on and so on.
JulianClarity
Active Member
Thank you legoZ, I will talk to sunpower before doing anything for sure. What is your opinion on sunpower vs sunrun? If you ever considered sunrun, what is the reason for you to pick sunpower over sunrun?
Thanks,
Julian
Im in Los Angeles, i have a second meter for my ev charger and pay 10-12 cents per kilowatt during off peak, which is what solar costs. The solar companies do not recommend i get solar even though i want it.
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