Is running EV charging stations a legitimate business?

[Bruce M.]

Yes, I do know that the big networks are not run by the government. Electrify America was created to settle the federal EPA lawsuit dieselgate mess. They seem to have no incentive to keep their chargers running. Tesla's chargers work all of the time.

I'm 100% against the government running EV charging. Charging should be a competitive business where competition sets market pricing and drives innovation and efficiency. I agree that having people drive EVs is in the public good, and I support some subsidies to help get networks built out. I'm also in favor of the recent NEVI wording that seems to link this funding to charger reliability performance standards.

Also, if I look at the level 2 charging network near me, the ones installed by state and municipal governments are the ones with by far the worst reliability. They just don't get fixed when they break.

I started this thread to try and understand the business and economics of EV charging, and why Tesla charging works really well, and the CCS network is mediocre. There have been some replies that have helped with that, so I'm happy for that.

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. My experience suggests your theory of the case borders on the absurd (to use a far politer term than I originally thought of), but you have fun while capitalism continues to send us down the road to catastrophe.

 

[Mark W]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree.

Yes, I think that's best. Meanwhile, I hope to hear from others that can help educate us on the economics of EV charging.

 

[R P]

I think charging stations could be associated with amenities like fast food restaurants that could then hold a stake. I know when on a trip, that's what I look for.

 

[Keith Smith]

So my Social Security payments never come on time because no one profits from sending them? 911 didn't get me an ambulance when I needed one because no one profits from answering 911 calls? Funny, that hasn't been my experience. Go away with this garbage.

C'mon this is comparing apples to washing machines. 911 has not always been viable either. Consumer products need consumers. If the government ran it it would cost $3.00/KWH and still not work:

https://www.americanenergyalliance.org/2024/06/biden-spends-7-5-billion-for-7-ev-charging-stations/

Nobody is happy about this boondoggle. Even if they get to 1/2 million stations (silly) we are talking $14K per station as the government's share of the cost. Although it's a terrible idea, I'd bet if you had just given the same money, 3 years ago to Tesla, we'd have another 100K DCFC's scattered around by now.

Seven billion is a lot of cheese.

 

[Keith Smith]

I think charging stations could be associated with amenities like fast food restaurants that could then hold a stake. I know when on a trip, that's what I look for.

No, no, you can make a lot more money if you stick them in the back lot of a Target or Wal-mart, or out in the far corner of a parking lot. Or even just all by themselves in the middle of nowhere.

To your point, ... Again, the problem is there is no margin on the transaction, and the amount of time from start to finish is dramatically longer than filling a tank with gas. I get $30 and you sit there for 1/2 hour at my electricity pump! This paradigm has to change, charging has to be a trap for some other economic activity that actually generates revenue.

We need low cost overnight style charging, L2 or L3, but hookup and forget until it's time to use the vehicle again, like home charging, but generally available in residential settings, condo's apartments etc, comes with rent / cost passes thru. Still low cost but slightly more expensive faster 'courtesy' charging at places you might shop or be at for an extended period of time, grocery store, movie theater, whatever. Finally travel charging, as fast as possible, along the major travel corridors that will be on the expensive side, needs to be next to a coffee shop or other economic engine.

 

[bwilson4web]

We need low cost overnight style charging, L2

So I stay at affordable motels with free charging. But recently, stayed at a motel with free L2 charging five small blocks away. Some mid-level priced motel chains continue to add L2 charging on their properties. The local staff has no clue but that is not required for a good night's sleep.

Bob Wilson

 

[R P]

No, no, you can make a lot more money if you stick them in the back lot of a Target or Wal-mart, or out in the far corner of a parking lot. Or even just all by themselves in the middle of nowhere.

To your point, ... Again, the problem is there is no margin on the transaction, and the amount of time from start to finish is dramatically longer than filling a tank with gas. I get $30 and you sit there for 1/2 hour at my electricity pump! This paradigm has to change, charging has to be a trap for some other economic activity that actually generates revenue.

We need low cost overnight style charging, L2 or L3, but hookup and forget until it's time to use the vehicle again, like home charging, but generally available in residential settings, condo's apartments etc, comes with rent / cost passes thru. Still low cost but slightly more expensive faster 'courtesy' charging at places you might shop or be at for an extended period of time, grocery store, movie theater, whatever. Finally travel charging, as fast as possible, along the major travel corridors that will be on the expensive side, needs to be next to a coffee shop or other economic engine.

Well, there are many hotels that do offer free overnight L2 charging as an amenity. And am sure their cost is not more than the free breakfast they also provide to guests. I know I look for that when on a trip.

And the fast food joints all benefit from an L3 charger, getting extra business. Like I said, that's what I look for as well when deciding which charge to use.

As far as margins, just have to look at gas stations. Have you ever seen one anymore that just sells gas? They make a lot more money in their convenience store (huge margins there) than selling gas, esp when they compete to have a cent or two lower than the guy across the street, just to get you to stop there. And also why they don't mind you stopping to use their washrooms, conveniently located at the back of the store to tempt you to buy something on your way out.

 

[Keith Smith]

In the state of Washington, they try to combine private and state money in the build out. The state doesn't run the charging networks here. The main players taking state money are EvGo, Shell, Flo, EVCS, Blink.

We might note Tesla did not get any free money to build out, though their cars were subsidized heavily for a while. Blink is the worst, the app is sh*t, the stations are all L2, and they all are horribly expensive. Since the enterprise is not generally profitable you take the gubmint $$ build the station wherever someone will let you, then basically abandon it. No planning, no nothing. I noticed this when I first got my Niro. I went to Yuma, 4 EA stations in the back of a Target, hard to find 2 of 4 actually working. There were about a dozen Tesla chargers right off 8 near downtown, well lit area easy to see and find, ez in and out, no weaving around and hunting in a shopping center parking lot. . . .

Now Tesla has two in the Yuma area, One in Fortuna, you can see it from I-8. On the way back to phoenix you will pass 8 more Tesla points in Tacna, then 40 more in Dateland, where you will also find 4 EA stations in the parking lot behind the little store, where you may be able to get 50KW, maybe not. Totally unreal.

 

[Keith Smith]

As far as margins, just have to look at gas stations. Have you ever seen one anymore that just sells gas? They make a lot more money in their convenience store (huge margins there) than selling gas, esp when they compete to have a cent or two lower than the guy across the street, just to get you to stop there. And also why they don't mind you stopping to use their washrooms, conveniently located at the back of the store to tempt you to buy something on your way out.

True, but they also make a ton of money selling fuel. It's a sheer volume game. A busy station can get multiple deliveries in one day, a Tanker holds around 10,000 gallons of fuel. With a margin of 0.40/gal we are talking $4000/day and more for just fuel at a busy location, with minimal overhead, once the tanks are in the ground and the pumps are installed. I don't think 20 DCFC's would be able to generate even 1/4 of that. Further the foot traffic is in-and-out from a gas station, the sheer number of people wandering in from the pumps is going to be an order magnitude higher as time on station is so much higher with electric. I'm not sure what the correct solution is.

 

[Keith Smith]

Well, we will have to agree to disagree. My experience suggests your theory of the case borders on the absurd (to use a far politer term than I originally thought of), but you have fun while capitalism continues to send us down the road to catastrophe.

If you despise capitalism so much then why do you choose to live in a capitalist country? This is still a free country, thus nothing is preventing you from moving to a more socialist place where the government takes away your guns and control everything you do. We'll take up a collection and buy your 1-way ticket. In the mean time I will sell my services / economic output at the most confiscatory rate I can achieve to whomever is most willing to pay me. If you try and jab me with a needle or force me to wear a mask, or force me to send too much of whatever I happen to earn to whatever your pet project for the greater good may be you might be disappointed in the outcome. So have all the fun you want, but this is a capitalist country and I intend to try and keep it as such as long as I am alive, and I am willing to put my life on the line to keep you or anyone else from taking what is mine, or making me do something I am not inclined to do.

 

[bwilson4web]

Calm @Keith Smith, we each have a free choice and 'ad hominem' is a particularly weak argument (and soon becomes a 'so is your mother' contest.) Someone once said, "The Americans will always do the right thing after exhausting all the others" and it is our way.

IMHO, Biden has treated Musk and Tesla badly yet I've already voted with my wallet. I've always supported the virtuous over the venal. It isn't always the winning side but it has a good track record.

Bob Wilson

 

[Keith Smith]

Calm @Keith Smith, we each have a free choice and 'ad hominem' is a particularly weak argument (and soon becomes a 'so is your mother' contest.) Someone once said, "The Americans will always do the right thing after exhausting all the others" and it is our way.

IMHO, Biden has treated Musk and Tesla badly yet I've already voted with my wallet. I've always supported the virtuous over the venal. It isn't always the winning side but it has a good track record.

Bob Wilson

TLDR;

The thread is about capitalism. . . Putting up money to build out power stations for EV's to make more money and grow the pie. Business is capitalism. The US was founded on capitalism. There are plenty of countries that are both socialist and capitalist, Singapore comes to mind. JFK was a staunch capitalist. The fact that our schools and the media have maligned it as evil is not only stunning but counter productive to growth and innovation. The communes in the 60's are all gone because almost all people are motivated by tangible rewards for their work product. The United States became the greatest nation on the earth because by and large it allowed people to sell their own work product, and this is capitalism at it's core.

The biggest issue I see with projects of this magnitude is the capital cost to build out EV charging has been extremely high, and the recurring revenue for the capital expenditures is not enough to sustain the enterprise. The government really screwed the pooch with all the forced build out of immature technology, and zero planning, thus high costs raised the capital outlays required, and caused operational losses, because of low margins, high maintenance, and poor locations. Now we seem to want the government to somehow fix the problem it created. I think Tesla has had the needed volume, and their latest generation of charging equipment has shown itself to be reliable, less expensive, and more rapidly deploy-able. They appear to have scaled their operation in a sane way putting up charging stations strategically along major routes. They've done a really good job without bureaucrats sticking their noses under the door, not perfect, but improving constantly.

So if I want to compete in this charging space where are the gaps, and can they be filled? I think there are markets, but it's going to be like the trucking business, shaving pennies off the top. The equipment needs to be hands off and extremely reliable. I actually could see a full subscription service in the future, with networks similar to ATM's, and much smaller scale systems. Let Tesla, (Surprisingly, Rivian actually has a number of chargers around these parts well located, attractive) build out the travel / high wattage / superfast part, I think the evil capitalists have figured it out.

I think chargepoint is looking at something like this, subscription services for people to use parked at work, or shopping, or in their apartment complexes, what-have-you. These can be much lighter weight, to the earlier points, 15-50KW boxes that don't cost $100K, but under $5K, with dramatically lower capital outlays, and drastically less needed infrastructure to feed them. You own the office building or apartment complex, you drop a dozen 'networkable' boxes in for say a capital outlay of $2K*12 = $24K and another $24K to run the infrastructure to the boxes. Call it $100K all in for some padding, now you maybe you can get maybe $50-200/day net. Not much money maybe $500-1000/week, but it can just sit there without you messing with it like a vending machine that doesn't need to be filled. This is what OCPP is all about.

 

[Keith Smith]

I think if you are traveling from point a to point b on occasion and need to fast-charge you don't mind paying a hefty premium for that convenience. This doesn't work close-to-home or on a regular basis for Joe Average. Not that great for the batteries on the car either. Close-to-home/work rates need to be in-line with the cost of home charging. Much lower margins based on TOU. Plug in at work, get juice until 13:00 for $0.10 over cost.

The last piece to this puzzle is that the car really needs to have an identifier that can be (But I may want to be able to turn it off!) used to automatically handle the charging session. For example, I have my 'KSmith' network account, I've set it up so that I'm willing to pay up to $0.35/kwh until my charge is at 60%, after that only $0.20 or less. Busy morning running around, down to around a 30% charge. I drive up to a KSmith networked station back at the office, plug the car in. It's 11:00 power is $0.18 until 13:00, flips to $0.32 after. The station gives me whatever it has available up to 15KW. It attaches to my account/vehicle. For the first two hours, it gets me 15KW,, charges up to 50% at 13:00, at which point my kwh rate goes up, and the charge rate goes down to 10KW because demand is high. I hit 60% at 14:30, my session ends because of my cost cap.

You could do this with a key card,fob or code and id the car, but it would be best if it was automagic. One last thing on this the communication should be secured with a hardware key that cannot be duplicated. Think: Yubikey type device built in the vehicle that gets registered with the network.

We just are not quite there yet.

 

[OneEV]

• Tesla Superchargers - lowest cost, highest charge rate, not affected by other EVs charging.

Bob Wilson

yes Tesla has charging stations that are affected by other vehicles charging. split posts are common .

 

[bwilson4web]

Tesla has charging stations that are affected by other vehicles charging. split posts are common .

How? Adding technical details works best.

Bob Wilson

 

[Bruce M.]

If you despise capitalism so much then why do you choose to live in a capitalist country? This is still a free country, thus nothing is preventing you from moving to a more socialist place where the government takes away your guns and control everything you do. We'll take up a collection and buy your 1-way ticket. In the mean time I will sell my services / economic output at the most confiscatory rate I can achieve to whomever is most willing to pay me. If you try and jab me with a needle or force me to wear a mask, or force me to send too much of whatever I happen to earn to whatever your pet project for the greater good may be you might be disappointed in the outcome. So have all the fun you want, but this is a capitalist country and I intend to try and keep it as such as long as I am alive, and I am willing to put my life on the line to keep you or anyone else from taking what is mine, or making me do something I am not inclined to do.

Oh good lord. I actually think America is fixable and prefer to be part of that effort. But that requires overcoming people who spout hilarious nonsense about countries where people have a secure retirement, get paid living wages and don't go broke and lose their homes due to medical bills. The horror!!! How about if you leave me alone and I'll do the same for you, okay?

 

[Mark W]

We have had a really good debate in this thread. Let's please keep political discussion and personal attacks out please.

 

[marshall]

C'mon this is comparing apples to washing machines. 911 has not always been viable either. Consumer products need consumers. If the government ran it it would cost $3.00/KWH and still not work:

https://www.americanenergyalliance.org/2024/06/biden-spends-7-5-billion-for-7-ev-charging-stations/

Nobody is happy about this boondoggle. Even if they get to 1/2 million stations (silly) we are talking $14K per station as the government's share of the cost. Although it's a terrible idea, I'd bet if you had just given the same money, 3 years ago to Tesla, we'd have another 100K DCFC's scattered around by now.

Seven billion is a lot of cheese.

You are way, way over selling it. The federal government installations will pick up significantly in 2025 as long as we keep out Trump.

These are not a shovel really projects, and yes government has to go through a process that takes time.

1. The feds have to write the program details. That takes time.
2. The states have to submit their proposals. That takes time
3. The feds have to approve the state's proposals. That takes time.
4. The states have hold public comment. That takes time.
5. The states write their program details. That takes time.
6. The states submit a request for proposal from companies interested in installing and managing. That takes time.
7. Companies are selected. That takes time.
8. Companies wait for equipment, land, and utility access. Utility access can take a very, very long time. That takes time.

The amount of time it takes makes for a boat load of smear material, but things are moving right along.

Anyhow, I don't think you don't have a clue as to how long it takes Tesla to install superchargers. For all we know, it could take 3 to 4 years or more from projection to full operation. Again, the utility company is often the holdup.

It took years from the time Tesla showed the projected install here on their supercharger map until they actually built the installation. As it turned out, they canceled the low power parking garage install and went with a typical 12 charger install on ground level.

 

[Keith Smith]

Sorry, I'm old, I've been dealing (sometimes directly) with government crap for 50 years. Anyone who thinks the government can do this more efficiently than private industry is seriously uninformed, or simply lacks the experience. I'd rather give the money to Musk, than bureaucrats, but frankly neither should get it.

It did take a long time for Tesla to get where they are, but they are orders of magnitude ahead of any of the government forced/controlled/subsidised stuff. They currently have over 2000 stations in the US, with over 25000 pedestals. Apparently musk is putting them in for a fraction of what most cost.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/15/tesla-cost-deploy-superchargers-revealed-one-fifth-competition/

Tesla planned their network from the start, and indeed began earmarking thousands of prospective locations and purchasing leases etc way ahead of time, back when they first started building the model S cars. Where is the 'gubmint plan? Still in committee? How many charging stations did Tesla have over the first three years once NACS/Model S took a foothold?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Supercharger

They started building the network in 2012. By 2013 they had 15 supercharger stations in the US, with exponential growth since. In three years the government backed program has managed seven (7). Tesla had twice as many with a fraction of the outlay in 1/2 the time. A billion a pop so far. As my mother used to say, "Just write this down in your little book". In five more years it is unlikely the government will have installed even 1000 stations, and the money will be all spent. Mark my words, as you write your congressman, state, and local bureaucrats to get some of the largesse in your neck of the woods.

The problem with grandiose ideas is they want to use other peoples money, and there is only so much of other peoples money they are willing to give without squealing loudly. Let the markets figure this out. The anointed have been selling this crap since the time of Caeser, this is why we had an American Revolution.

If you let the free capitalist markets roll it out it will be cheaper, better and more plentiful than anything under the thumb of a bureaucrat. If you want social safety nets lobby for them locally, don't make a federal case out of it. More of the money will then get to it's intended target. Again there are very socialist countries out there that might be a better fit for the idea's I'm hearing, though some of them are beginning to balk as well.

 

[bwilson4web]

There needs to be balance between government and private actions. For example, China adopted more capitalistic practices and their economy exploded. In contrast, North Korea remains a well armed, economic hell hole. But as for charging.

Elon wanted to sell EVs and knew he could not depend on third parties. Tesla only survived by Musk not relying on expensive, unreliable, 3d party suppliers. Worse, the SAE standard, CCS-1, with its mechanical latch and huge size, was and remains an engineering disaster. Elon engineered and built the SuperCharger network that even today, out performs with lower costs and better reliability than the CCS-1 networks. Amotjer example, the USB disaster.

There are dozens of USB variants that are all incompatible with each other. I have at least half a dozen next to my laptop. But when the EU mandated USB-C, we suddenly seeing a consistent, small, high speed, standard. Within two years, USB-A and the variants will cease to exist in new products. The sooner, the better showing Government actions working.

Bob Wilson