My point is that I want to understand why so many chargers don't work. I want to understand the business of charging. If a government pays for something, then that means there is NO incentive for anyone to make sure the chargers that are being installed are reliable and continue to work. How much governments should be pitching in to get chargers built is a separate debate, but in order for them to stay working, they need to be run by someone making a profit from them running.
Is running EV charging stations a legitimate business?
- Thread starter Mark W
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Keith Smith
Active Member
I think this is pretty important. IMNSHO, the crazy push caused more problems than it solved, as way too much unreliable very expensive 1st gen equipment was installed that really sucked, and didn't support the max charging rates. Then 2nd gen stuff was only marginally better, but allowed higher rates. We are now seeing a price drop and performance improvement, mostly because the improvement in reliability around the standardization of the components in the systems. If you go to Alibaba, you can find 200 and 300W systems under $100,000, and the software that allows all these systems to communicate (OCPP) has dramatically matured, allowing better management. So we are finally at a point where a company can put in equipment and expect to get some sort of ROI on the expense, without having to tear it out in a year.
Problem 2 is just getting enough power to actually charge the cars, and how much that power costs. I've done the maths a few times but the average gas pump is pulling 20-50 cents per gallon net, with a 10gal fillup taking 5 minutes or so. EV charger is charging 50 cents/kwh for you to sit there for 30-60 minutes to get maybe 50 odd KWH, so $25 of revenue for pigging up a stall for a half-hour or more. They could be paying as much as 30 cents/kwh for the power, so call it 25 net, so $12.50 an hour. I don't think this model makes money. Maybe slightly higher margins off-peak.
I think the actual charging, needs to be a courtesy, the money coming from something else. This is also why the reliability is so bad, you can't afford to pay any kind of attendant to mind the store with those margins. Long term I think we will see DCFC stations drop even further in cost, probably under $5000, as they are fairly simple devices at the core, not even close to a gas pump in terms of complexity. At that point we might see some ability to increase station density and maybe even turn a profit if you couple charging with other distractions, refreshments, etc.
Problem 2 is just getting enough power to actually charge the cars, and how much that power costs. I've done the maths a few times but the average gas pump is pulling 20-50 cents per gallon net, with a 10gal fillup taking 5 minutes or so. EV charger is charging 50 cents/kwh for you to sit there for 30-60 minutes to get maybe 50 odd KWH, so $25 of revenue for pigging up a stall for a half-hour or more. They could be paying as much as 30 cents/kwh for the power, so call it 25 net, so $12.50 an hour. I don't think this model makes money. Maybe slightly higher margins off-peak.
I think the actual charging, needs to be a courtesy, the money coming from something else. This is also why the reliability is so bad, you can't afford to pay any kind of attendant to mind the store with those margins. Long term I think we will see DCFC stations drop even further in cost, probably under $5000, as they are fairly simple devices at the core, not even close to a gas pump in terms of complexity. At that point we might see some ability to increase station density and maybe even turn a profit if you couple charging with other distractions, refreshments, etc.
I'm really surprised that we haven't seen more advertising on the charging stations. Answer a few questions on your cell phone and get a discount. It seems like a no-brainer to me. It will be interesting to see if Shell Recharge runs with it.
Is there is some restriction when taking government money?
Keith Smith
Active Member
There is a chinese company making a 220v 7KW DC charger with a CCS plug under $1000. If they had a 15KW one I'd own it for home. Most of the smaller units now out of china are well under $5000, up to around 60KW. I think you could make money putting a bunch of these sized units in long stop locations along a travel route or in town without requiring massive buildouts of infrastructure. Say 10ish $5K units of 50KW, would need a more modest 500KW of power and a $50K hardware investment. A 30-60 minute stop should ramp up your charge enough to get you a decent way out
I'd pay $1500 for a 15KW DC home charger. This would let me charge faster bypassing the slower AC based OBC. I predict long term home chargers will actually be dc chargers not AC EVSE interfaces. This could potentially reduce the cost of a vehicle by removing the OBC, but there is no reason the AC->DC conversion cannot be done at the wall, instead of in the car.
I'd pay $1500 for a 15KW DC home charger. This would let me charge faster bypassing the slower AC based OBC. I predict long term home chargers will actually be dc chargers not AC EVSE interfaces. This could potentially reduce the cost of a vehicle by removing the OBC, but there is no reason the AC->DC conversion cannot be done at the wall, instead of in the car.
That would be a great unit for pubic parking too.
Keith Smith
Active Member
Keith Smith
Active Member
So the 7KW is 220v/single phase under $1000, but provides no real benefit over an EVSE. All EU designs, US will likely follow. Grizzle-e i25KW/Single phase closer to $20K.
RE: 15KW, if the money is not ridiculous why not? I have solar, and I often over-produce in the middle of the day. My OBC limits my charge rate to 7200, with DC at home I could easily charge at 10 or 12K at say 13:00-14:00 once my PV batteries are full as a dump load. I could provide free power to friends and neighbors without tying up my charger overnight.
I would totally agree that as a general rule 7600, in fact 5700, is more than adequate for most home charging. But I think there would be a market, and having the ability to easily DCFC at home could be very useful on occasion. Suppose my son were to drive over from MS in his Tesla, maybe on the way to CA or something. Stop by my house take a 3-4 hour break and top up with 40-60KWH of free juice! Just because it can do 15 doesn't mean you have to do 15. Further, you remove some of the cooling for the OBC to the DCFC. You could build in a 110v -> whatever battery charger in your cell phone.
Actually, a 25KW unit would actually probably be ideal if you could get it for $1500-$2000. When my solar project completes I will have 36KW of output. Why not make use of it when it is not needed to meet other demand?
Keith Smith
Active Member
Just like computers and other tech, the components that make up a DCFC are starting to commoditize. By using solid state buck-converters (vs wire wound transformers) we lower cost and make it easier to mass-produce the components for a fraction of the cost. It's coming, there is no reason to artificially prop it up. Once this begins to take hold it is likely the charging paradigm could shift dramatically. How about a solar 'fast-charging' neighborhood co-op? Drop a bunch of solar panels and some batteries on a big lot somewhere, join the co-op and you drop your car off on the way / near home, slide back over and pick it up in an hour or two, or on the way to work the next day? May not work, just thinking out loud, but the availability of cheap DCFC'sis going to have a significant impact on the adoption of EV's.
Take the whining over Lyft/Uber Bolt's hogging chargers. I mean we are talking no-brainer, drop some co-op locations around where these guys can get cheaper leccy, albeit much slower, they just cool their heels waiting for the next fare at the closest one. Pretty much use the stations to keep the vehicle topped up. I've been thinking about this a lot. The capital cost is still somewhat high, but the audience could be huge for that particular market.
Take the whining over Lyft/Uber Bolt's hogging chargers. I mean we are talking no-brainer, drop some co-op locations around where these guys can get cheaper leccy, albeit much slower, they just cool their heels waiting for the next fare at the closest one. Pretty much use the stations to keep the vehicle topped up. I've been thinking about this a lot. The capital cost is still somewhat high, but the audience could be huge for that particular market.
Keith Smith
Active Member
Say your a homeowner like me you have solar. I already put in an outside pedestal in my driveway for AC charging. Put a 25KW dcfc in charge $5/hour for an uber driver to grab power (~0.20/kwh ON PEAK!) after dropping someone nearby to top up a bit between fares?
It's fascinating to see the collaboration between government entities, organizations like Forth and Energy Northwest, and EVCS to advance sustainable mobility solutions.
John wallet
New Member
Tesla does it well because they prioritize reliability, but others like EA struggle despite high fees. Initial incentives help build stations but don’t cover upkeep. Opening up Tesla's network could boost their profits and shake up the market.
IMHO, Tesla does it well because they sell EVs. Without a reliable charging network, Tesla EV sales would collapse.
The other EV manufacturers have realized this which is why to a greater or lessor extent, they are adopting the J3400 (Tesla) standard. Commitments to J3400 vary with Ford leading the way. Rivian is dragging their feet. Then there is the price per kW of fast DC chargers.
Tesla has a distinct manufacturing advantage, about 1/3d the station cost versus equivalent CCS-1 chargers. Tesla build both in New York and China which avoids tariff and shipping expense. Tesla SuperChargers are the better choice. Here is an example in North Alabama:
- Tesla Superchargers - lowest cost, highest charge rate, not affected by other EVs charging.
- CCS-1 - higher cost, lowest charge rate, at least one affected by others charging.
- Two restricted access CCS-1 chargers.
CCS-1 has a latent design defect that the locking latch can easily break off even by dropping the plug. The Tesla plug has no latch or moving parts. Furthermore, CCS-1 plugs and cables are nearly twice as heavy as the Tesla plug and cables.
Bob Wilson
Bruce M.
Well-Known Member
So my Social Security payments never come on time because no one profits from sending them? 911 didn't get me an ambulance when I needed one because no one profits from answering 911 calls? Funny, that hasn't been my experience. Go away with this garbage.
So, you're equating sending Social Security checks, and operating 911 with EV charging for those who choose to drive an EV? Are you saying that the government (taxpayers) should be responsible for creating and maintaining a reliable EV charging network? It's an honest question. If I try to call the IRS I typically have to wait hours and hours to talk to someone. When my uncle has to arrange any health care through the VA, it's a nightmare.
I don't have any issue with government subsidies to get things rolling, but the non-Tesla charging network is a disaster of unreliability. Every network. How would you solve that?
Bruce M.
Well-Known Member
You do know that those terribly unreliable non-Tesla charging networks are privately run, right? Electrify America is not a government entity. I would trust my local government here in Hawaii County, which does most things pretty well, to run a charging network over Electrify America any day. And yes, EV charging is a public good that should be funded through taxes and publicly run. The notion that profit is the only thing that makes things work is silly. As for health care, I have many, many more problems with my privatized (thanks, Republicans!) Medicare drug plan than with original Medicare, administered by Feds, which has been entirely seamless. Oh, and you have to wait for hours calling the IRS because Republicans have starved it of funds for a couple decades -- because, you know, free-dumb.
Yes, I do know that the big networks are not run by the government. Electrify America was created to settle the federal EPA lawsuit dieselgate mess. They seem to have no incentive to keep their chargers running. Tesla's chargers work all of the time.
I'm 100% against the government running EV charging. Charging should be a competitive business where competition sets market pricing and drives innovation and efficiency. I agree that having people drive EVs is in the public good, and I support some subsidies to help get networks built out. I'm also in favor of the recent NEVI wording that seems to link this funding to charger reliability performance standards.
Also, if I look at the level 2 charging network near me, the ones installed by state and municipal governments are the ones with by far the worst reliability. They just don't get fixed when they break.
I started this thread to try and understand the business and economics of EV charging, and why Tesla charging works really well, and the CCS network is mediocre. There have been some replies that have helped with that, so I'm happy for that.
Over half of the local government and utilities L2 stations are working around here. However they are now subject to zombie attacks on the cables. The cable attacks are an expensive problem for everyone. If the state governments required the scrap dealers to mail checks for scrap copper that would help a lot.
EvGo has two locations that are completely down due to zombie attacks, and two other locations are suffering battle scars. Two of these stations are the 50 kW ones that are low priority for repair.
In the state of Washington, they try to combine private and state money in the build out. The state doesn't run the charging networks here. The main players taking state money are EvGo, Shell, Flo, EVCS, Blink.