Ioniq 5 beats Tesla M3 in safety tests

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R P said:
why they switched to using cameras and not radar for autopilot
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Tesla removed the radar in the spring from the Model Y and A but legacy cars still have the radars. At an AI conference (don't have the link handy,) the unreliability of radar was shown with graphs. BTW, the early Toyota radars had a similar problem with fantom braking especially around bridge joints.

Bob Wilson
 
Offhand, it would seem that camera and perhaps radar based systems would depend upon driving conditions, e.g., road spray, rain, fog. How do independent testers evaluate performance over such a broad range of conditions, especially since I'd think it would be hard to mimic the full dynamic range in a controlled way. (Maybe I should do some reading before posting here. :-)
 
R P said:
Tesla has a very poor track record with their marketing hype about autopilot and FSD. Now the chickens are coming home to roost.
https://www.theregister.com/2021/08/19/us_ftc_probe/#:~:text=Despite Musk’s insistence that Tesla vehicles are close,be prepared to take over at any time.
https://www.carindigo.com/news/tesl...at-its-fsd-technology-is-a-sae-level-2-system
And just recently had to replace their radar with front cameras (like other auto makers use) for their autopilot, to try and fix their problems. This does not help their already low credibility, and no reason to believe they have fully fixed their autopilot at this time.

And just today, Musk rolls out another recruiting video (losing too many engineers these days) with another promise. He is a great visionary and marketer, but the reality is often very different, and at best very late.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnko...ich-is-apparently-not-a-joke/?sh=24eb0f8057c3
But am sure the fanbois will eat it all up...
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AFAIK, Tesla does no advertising at all. Where's the marketing hype? In the feature name?
(FWIW, I don't use autopilot or cruise control, but YMMV.)
 
GringoViejo said:
AFAIK, Tesla does no advertising at all. Where's the marketing hype? In the feature name?
(FWIW, I don't use autopilot or cruise control, but YMMV.)
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I didn't say advertising. I said marketing, which is what Elon Musk does with tweets. And then all the EV news sites peddle it for him. So you could say he gets a lot of free advertising.
 
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dBdt said:
… it would be hard to mimic the full dynamic range in a controlled way. (Maybe I should do some reading before posting here. :)
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You might review the AI day presentation supporting Full Self Driving (FSD) and following comments by Tesla advocates. For example, at one point they tested their FSD coming upon a future cyber truck. Adding weather and light effects should be possible. As for IIHS/NHTSA/NTSB testing, they need to bring big bags of cash for their future test track(s).

Bob Wilson
 
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They have so many more bicycles on the roads in Asia than the USA. Regardless, it would be an ‘over the air’ update.

It only makes sense there would be regional variations in the relative risks. For example, large diesel pickup trucks with red capped drivers are Alabama’s biggest road risks.

Recently Elon pointed out that FSD has a distinct San Francisco bias but then he and the developers are in the Fremont suburb. You don’t suppose the IONIQ 5 might have a Korean bias making it deadly in the USA?

Bob Wilson
 
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Source: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.co...tesla-electric-vehicle/20210712185706913.html

Apparently there has been no measured impact on Korean sales of Teslas. Just a trolling thread about a car not sold in the USA based upon a regional, Korean test. A test that thanks to over the air updates and FSD might be soon forgotten … outdated.

LATE THOUGHT:
Four legged animals are also common in some parts of the world. I wonder how both do with a donkey, horse, mule, and elephant.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web said:
Source: https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.co...tesla-electric-vehicle/20210712185706913.html

Apparently there has been no measured impact on Korean sales of Teslas. Just a trolling thread about a car not sold in the USA based upon a regional, Korean test. A test that thanks to over the air updates and FSD might be soon forgotten … outdated.
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The Ioniq 5 is coming to the US and a couple of our UK Forum members are receiving theirs in a day or two. I would imagine Tesla can do better than this, but this is a snapshot in time like any test.
 
I already subscribed to the IONIQ forum since they claimed to be better than the Prius I owned. I did a test drive and felt car sick. So I have insights others may not understand.

Lacking my background, I don’t fault their absence of either Prius or Tesla experience. Rather I bemoan their chauvinism about their ‘ride’ with no fingerprints on steering wheels of the cars they throw shade at. Deliberate ignorance does not inspire trust or confidence.

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
Kinda moot for a USA buyer as our IONIQ is not numbered. The EPA specs at fueleconomy.gov are weaker than the market leader Model 3.

Bob Wilson
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Hyundai Motor Group EVs all have a reputation for meeting or exceeding their rated efficiency. Everyone I know with a Hyundai Kona, a Kia e-Niro, or a Kia Soul EV gets better range than advertised. This is not something that can be said of Tesla, except for perhaps some hypermiling outliers. At one point every single model of Hyundai/Kia EVs were in the top-10 list of efficiency, as recently as 2019 if memory serves. So I wouldn't be so quick to judge efficiency based on that metric.

But, in fairness, we don't know if E-GMP will continue the high efficiency trend that South Korean cars are known for. Let's see what Bjorn Nyland finds in more extensive testing of the two.
 
MassDeduction said:
I wouldn't be so quick to judge efficiency based on that [EPA rjw] metric.
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Having spent over a decade of Prius ownership and dealing with EPA, and 3d party reviewers, I'll go with the EPA. One of my favorite forums is "EcoModder.com," another set of home-brew engineers who seek maximum performance from their rides. I prefer engineering over wishes.

Of course, others are free to select whatever source meets their expectation. Just their assertions seem to lack reproducibility, physics, and basic math found in the EPA sources.

Bob Wilson

ps. Thank you! I went back to a favorite EPA data source and found significant problems with the Hyundai and Kia entries. Their reported MPG in the Test Car Database is significantly off. This is not the first time I've found manufacturers have screwed up their data report to the EPA.
 
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I mentioned checking my source, the EPA Test Car Database, and finding a problem in the RND_ADJ_FE:
test_car_database.webp

Not limited to just Hyandai and Kia, Ford also has a test car result with a bogus MPG. So what can you trust?

My experience is the vehicle gross weight and the "Target Coef A, B, and C" are usable. In particular, there is a formula that gives the horse power (746 W) as a function of speed:

drag HP = v * (A + B*v + C*(v*v)) / 375​

Most of this data comes from the manufacturer who typically outsource the testing. But the EPA reserves the right to replicate the testing and have fined manufacturers who submitted bad data. So who fines a journalist, publication, or random internet poster sharing inaccurate claims?

Regardless, here is a good place to start understanding the data the EPA gathers and shares:
https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/download.shtml

Bob Wilson



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R P said:
As an aside, Subaru has been using dual front stereo cameras for about 10 years now for their driver assist safety systems, and refining them every year. They have been the leaders in safety as per the insurance institute tests…
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We have a Subaru Forester with the EyeSight Driver-Assist System (stereo lens sys). It’s a 2017 and the system worked well back then.

I also have a 2020 Hyundai Kona EV with one forward looking camera and it’s collision avoidance + lane keeping seems even better in every way. This for 2 vehicles not even pretending to aim at autonomous driving, just safety.


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
Late thought, the fines and loss of credibility from exceeding the EPA claims makes 'sandbagging' the low risk option. The WPA values have historically been more optimistic. But with a methodology, I would be inclined to take their values over a layman's report.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web said:
Late thought, there fines and loss of credibility from exceeding the EPA claims but 'sandbagging' is without risk. The WPA values have historically been more optimistic. But with a methodology, I would be inclined to take their values over a layman's report.

Bob Wilson
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The reality is that the real world independent tests clearly show that Tesla cars are optimistic with their EPA estimates which are done by the manufacturer. Hyundai and others are more realistic and conservative with their EPA estimates as shown by the independent tests and owners consistently over achieving those numbers.

Again here are the Edmonds tests. Pretty telling...
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html#chart
I will always believe actual tests over a manufacturer's estimate, whether for EPA or any other standard (eg WLTP).

But this thread is about safety and again how the Ioniq 5 beats Tesla M3. You started another thread about EPA and your comparisons. Why don't you keep your EPA content over there?
 
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R P said:
But the reality is that the real world independent tests clearly show that Tesla cars are optimistic with their EPA estimates which are done by the manufacturer. Hyundai and others are more realistic and conservative with their EPA estimates as shown by the independent tests and owners consistently over achieving those numbers.
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Actually they exceed the 63-64 mph speed that in a Prius returns the EPA numbers. So there are two flaws: (1) driving too fast, and; (2) cautious under reporting of the manufacturers to avoid an EPA fine and black eye.

R P said:
Again here are the Edmonds tests. Pretty telling...
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/electric-car-range-and-consumption-epa-vs-edmunds.html#chart
I will always believe actual tests over a manufacturer's estimate, whether for EPA or any other standard (eg WLTP).
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Why don't you cut and paste a dozen or a hundred times? It won't reverse the two problems mentioned earlier. Now I did appreciate their 3-day, 'smackdown' series several years ago:
  • 3-5 cars driven on one trip to Las Vegas and back
  • Mix of country, urban, and superhighway
  • Swap drivers and share notes
R P said:
But this thread is about safety and again how the Ioniq 5 beats Tesla M3. You started another thread about EPA and your comparisons. Why don't you keep your EPA content over there?
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It is called 'thread drift' and happens often. I don't sweat the small stuff. As for 'safety', we'll see what happens when they undergo USA testing ... someday.

Bob Wilson
 
R P said:
But this thread is about safety and again how the Ioniq 5 beats Tesla M3. You started another thread about EPA and your comparisons. Why don't you keep your EPA content over there?
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In Bob's defense, he did not write the post that took the thread off-topic.

It would be nice if we returned to the topic of this thread, as there are others where we can discuss range and the EPA. Thanks!
 
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