Honda Clarity Sales

[DucRider]

Leased vehicles are indeed "sold". When a vehicle is leased, the finance company pays the dealer for it and then "rents" it to the customer. Most often, the fiance company is a division of the manufacturer, but not always.
New vehicle (and many used) dealers very rarely own any of the cars on their lot (fuel cell, electric, PHEV or ICE). They are almost always carried on a flooring plan (a form of inventory financing).

 

[2002]

Leased vehicles are indeed "sold". When a vehicle is leased, the finance company pays the dealer for it and then "rents" it to the customer. Most often, the fiance company is a division of the manufacturer, but not always.
New vehicle (and many used) dealers very rarely own any of the cars on their lot (fuel cell, electric, PHEV or ICE). They are almost always carried on a flooring plan (a form of inventory financing).

If we were talking about leases in general everything you said is true. But I am talking specifically about Clarity electric and Clarity FCEV which as I mentioned appears to be a completely different situation. As far as I know these cars are not available for purchase at the end of the lease, and for that reason I submit that Honda is retaining ownership of them at least for the time being until or unless they change their policy.

"Closed end lease for 2018 Honda Clarity Electric for well-qualified lessees. Not all applicants will qualify. No purchase option at lease end."

The Honda website doesn't currently state that but all you can do on the website is fill out a form to be contacted for more information. I would do that except I don't live in California and they might get annoyed if I lied when I filled out the form. Maybe someone in California can fill in the form and get contacted then ask them if either the electric or FCEV can now be purchased at the end of the three-year lease.

If it is still the case that the vehicle cannot be purchased at the end of the lease, why would Honda sell it to a finance company? At the end of the lease would the finance company be allowed to sell it on the wholesale market just not to the original lessee? What finance company would even want to buy the car if it has that restriction, especially a niche low selling car like Clarity.

Again I don't know for sure but as long as we are all just guessing I just think my theory makes more sense based on the limited facts so far.

 

[insightman]

Honda's monthly sales report lists the total of all 3 Clarity varieties. So Honda is counting the leased ones as "sold." I don't know how InsideEVs comes up with its breakout for each Clarity model.

 

[DucRider]

When a FCEV or BEV Clarity is leased, a title is issued and the vehicle counts as sold (even if the title is issued to Honda Financial, a division of American Honda) What can or can't happen at the end of the lease term is not relevant.

The Fit EV was counted in sales figures (and counts towards the 200K Fed cap). At that time Honda did list the EV separately from the ICE version in their monthly sales reports. It was even more of a "belongs to Honda" in that the lease included comp and collision (as well as all maintenance) - it was essentially a Honda fleet vehicle. while it was also not available for purchase at lease end, we did have to register the car in our name and also provide liability insurance. Once again the Title was issued to Honda Financial.

Here's a link to the July 2014 sales figures with numbers for the Fit EV (and others like the Civic hybrid and Accord PHEV) listed:
https://hondanews.com/releases/american-honda-reports-july-2014-sales?query=2014+sales
42 of the 5,115 Fit sold that month were EV's.

 

[2002]

it was essentially a Honda fleet vehicle

And yet they count it as sold even though the customer (and apparently no one else) can buy it and they retain ownership at the end of the lease. Well okay then, it's their sales figures I guess they can do what they want with their numbers.

we did have to register the car in our name and also provide liability insurance

That is always true in a lease (typical consumer lease anyway). Technically the leasing company is giving you permission to register the vehicle in your name even though they will be listed as the owner. And of course you have to pay all of the fees.

 

[David in TN]

Just to stir the pot a bit more...

If you are financing a vehicle, it technically isn't yours until it is paid in full.

Until the housing bust about 10 years ago it was very easy for someone to purchase a house or car. There were plenty of repo's and foreclosures, too.

Sent from my SM-N960U using Inside EVs mobile app

 

[Fast Eddie B]

"Closed end lease for 2018 Honda Clarity Electric for well-qualified lessees. Not all applicants will qualify. No purchase option at lease end."

I just saw the same was true with Tesla leases. They just lowered the monthly lease payment on a Model 3 to $399, while simultaneously raising the down payment to $4,500. Allegedly the want the used cars back for autonomous driving mules, or something.

I can see how that could be enticing. But I’ve never leased a car - I like to see my monthly payment, if any, “go towards” eventual ownership. But we hold onto our cars a long time, and rarely finance unless the interest rate is zero, or less than we can earn in conservative investments.

But as I said, leasing may be the right choice for some.

 

[marshall]

Honda's monthly sales report lists the total of all 3 Clarity varieties. So Honda is counting the leased ones as "sold." I don't know how InsideEVs comes up with its breakout for each Clarity model.

I would seem that one could simply may a public records request from the department of motor vehicles. If the VIN is different between the three models, then it should be fairly simple.

 

[insightman]

I would seem that one could simply may a public records request from the department of motor vehicles. If the VIN is different between the three models, then it should be fairly simple.

Inside EVs creates their sales report by submitting a public records request from California and Oregon every month? Instead, I suspect they have a mole inside Honda who gives them the Clarity sales breakout.

 

[sniwallof]

I just saw the same was true with Tesla leases. They just lowered the monthly lease payment on a Model 3 to $399, while simultaneously raising the down payment to $4,500. Allegedly the want the used cars back for autonomous driving mules, or something.

I can see how that could be enticing. But I’ve never leased a car - I like to see my monthly payment, if any, “go towards” eventual ownership. But we hold onto our cars a long time, and rarely finance unless the interest rate is zero, or less than we can earn in conservative investments.

But as I said, leasing may be the right choice for some.

I never leased a car before this one (I never lease anything), but Honda's Feb 2019, 2018 base model deal with NY/Fed incentives, which Honda passed on, was too good to pass up. $200 / mo., 3 year, down payment about state tax and fees ($3k), $14k buyout. You cannot break the lease, but I can buy it out any time at the prorated value without penalty. The website gives an updated payout cost, just like a regular loan. Seems like a pretty good arrangement. A few months in, my May payoff cost is about $22k.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Seems like a pretty good arrangement.

Agreed! I dismissed leasing out of hand, on general principal. I was lucky to have the cash from my sale of Tesla stock (@ $350! Good timing for once). Had I been offered a deal like yours, I certainly would have considered it.

 

[MNSteve]

Agreed! I dismissed leasing out of hand, on general principal.

So did I, and I regret it now. At least I should have investigated the option; I didn't do that because leasing has never even been an option that I considered. Maybe I would have come to the same conclusion and availed myself of the interest rate that was lower than I could earn on the money, but in retrospect it was stupid of me not to at least research it.

PS: I just noticed your probably-inadvertent pun. Years ago my kid's school made the same principle/principal error in a communication from their English department.

 

[2002]

If you are financing a vehicle, it technically isn't yours until it is paid in full.

You can sell it any time you want, to whomever you want to, something that the lien holder on the title (the finance company) is not allowed to do unless you default on your loan agreement with them. Of course they also have a right to be paid in full if you do decide to sell the car while they are still a lien holder on the title. And looking at the federal tax credit, the IRS gives the original owner the credit. If you finance you get the credit not the bank, and you don't even have to wait until it's paid off to get the credit, even though the bank is still a lien holder on the title. Whereas with a lease the finance company gets the credit because they are considered the original owner, although they may choose pass the credit on to the customer as part of the lease terms.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

PS: I just noticed your probably-inadvertent pun. Years ago my kid's school made the same principle/principal error in a communication from their English department.

I wish I could say it was intentional. I also screwed up capital/capitol not too long ago. My poor momma was a “comma-hound” and would be so ashamed of me.

But I’ll try not to loose any sleep over it!

 

[2002]

leasing may be the right choice for some

Some people don't have enough tax liability to fully benefit from the $7,500 federal tax credit, however they can still get the credit indirectly if the lease company applies the credit to the lease, which many of them do.

 

[2002]

I got to thinking about the the tax credit part of it. If HMC (parent company) retained ownership then I don't think the IRS would give them the tax credit. However assuming that they "sell" it to their subsidiary finance company the IRS will give them the credit, which they could then pass on to the customer by reducing the lease amount. However assuming (as I suspect) that Clarity electric and FCEV leases are only through Honda, then Honda still retains full ownership, i.e. they have full control over what happens to the car after the lease. What we don't know at the moment is what Honda plans to do with the vehicles when the leases end. There are so few of them they may just take them back and study them, then scrap them a la EV1. Does anyone know what happened to the Clarity FCX vehicles?

I still think reporting the "sale" of the electric and FCEV vehicles to themselves is sort of iffy. Yes that occurs during a normal lease through Honda financial, however in a normal lease the customer has the option to purchase the vehicle either during or at the end of the lease. And even if the customer returns it at the end of the lease Honda will then sell it on the wholesale market. So it makes sense to report it as sold even though Honda will own it during the first three years. But a vehicle that will likely never be owned by anyone other than Honda?

 

[DucRider]

A vehicle that is not offered for sale to the customer at the end of a lease will still be "sold" - a title change/transfer will occur.
Finance companies like Honda Financial are wholly owned subsidiaries with a completely different set of books (assets, liabilities, etc). They are occasionally even sold or spun off by the manufacturer (GMAC -> Ally).
At the end of the lease, the title will be transferred out of the finance companies name when the vehicle is purchased by the customer, sold to the dealer, at auction, back to the manufacturer, etc.

If a leased Clarity PHEV (or Accord, Civic, CRV, etc) is completely destroyed by fire (or stolen, etc) during the lease period, should Honda be required to adjust their sales figures since they will have been the only owners of that vehicle? The total of those likely far exceeds the number of Clarity FCEV's and BEV's leased in a given year.

The bottom line is that a "Sale" occurs when a title is issued for a given vehicle with no regards for the name on that title or future intent.