Honda and Toyota really resisting EV's...why?

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miatadan

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When you see articles like this:

https://insideevs.com/features/463951/toyota-anti-electric-car-not-unusual/

https://electrek.co/2020/12/17/toyota-ceo-lack-of-vision-spreads-ev-misinformation-spells-the-end/

https://electrek.co/2020/04/30/new-...sses-electric-vehicles-as-a-political-agenda/

But both were early to introduce hybrid vehicles.

The Honda Clarity has not really changed since 2018. No Honda PHEV models. Toyota seems slowly to be getting better as you can get Prius Prime PHEV as well aa the RAV4 Prime PHEV.

Only recently did Toyota announce the 2022 bZ4X.

In general Toyota and Honda has been known to have best reliablity and build quality.

For me it is sad to sell so many ICE vehicles continued to be introduced when it is more EV's we need , not new models of ICE

Dan
 
Every company has a right to be wrong. So I spent my money on a Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx. In fact, I traded a Toyota Prius Prime, $18,300, for the Model 3.

Bob Wilson
 
Bob,

this was similar for us. We traded a Prius Hybrid for a Model 3 ... well makes it easier to shop for cars in the coming years. No need to walk onto a Toyota or Honda lot.
 
bwilson4web said:
Every company has a right to be wrong. So I spent my money on a Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx. In fact, I traded a Toyota Prius Prime, $18,300, for the Model 3.

Bob Wilson
Click to expand...

Curious, how do feel about suspension, ride quality of the Tesla Model 3 compared to BMW?


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miatadan said:
Curious, how do feel about suspension, ride quality of the Tesla Model 3 compared to BMW?
Click to expand...
I am not a good judge. I run all tires at maximum sidewall pressure for precise handling and low rolling resistance. So both cars take on and off ramps about 20% faster than the tailgaters can stand. I look forward to their expressions when they realize it.

Bob Wilson
 
All of the major divisions of a car company (power plants, power trains, emissions, fuel handling, cooling, etc) are dedicated to making the ICE work. There is a VP in charge of each division.
When you walk into the board room and suggest that the electric motor guy (dedicated to starter motors and window rollup - which are mostly outsourced anyway) should now become power fully and they will no longer own a part of the Bill of Materials, you won't be popular.
The heads pretty much came from the ICE parts as well. Its a political nightmare within the organization.
The Germans were forced to go to EVs because Tesla hit the core of the BMW and MBZ market hard from the beginning. GM and Ford have been getting whipped by a Si valley startup beating Michigan on something they claimed couldn't be done. The jury is still out on whether they will actually do anything.
The Japanese are protected by an ocean and have been drinking the hydrogen hype as well as basking in their hybrid glory. It isn't clear whether they will survive either.
 
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/09/business/electric-cars-japan.html
[hint] disable javascript temporarily to get past paywall]

I had anticipated more serial hydrids, and frankly don't understand why the Priuses of the world do not have shrinking engines and growing batteries
I envisioned a world where your primary EV had a milk crate sized universal module in the trunk that was linked to your cars systems
'Dave I see that you have gone past your usual driving area, would you like me to start the range extender?'
'Thanks HAL, that is a good idea'
THe difference in a serial hybrid is that the engine does not have to cold start, or accelerate, or vary speed, all of the things that increase emissions. Could even design it to run primarily on alcohol, or biofuel.
The problem being, that there is always going to be the range anxiety issue with EVs, at least in some minds, and it is going to force the cost of EVs to be higher than they should be because EVs are going to have to be 'better' than ICE cars, IOW, have a 500 mile EPA range and even then people will say 'what if'

Honda one point had a modular hybrid system that inserted the electric motor between the engine and transmission, which would have allowed them to make any of their cars hybrid.
 
Your operational scenario is similar to our 2014 BMW i3-REx. A small, 640 cc, two cylinder, water cooled engine just drives a generator.

On the highway, it maintains 70 mph at 39 MPG. It has four rpm bands and smoothly transitions between them based on battery charge. The engine could be efficiency tweaked with cooled exhaust recirculation and Adkinson delayed intake valve closing. Regardless, the engine is a highway solution and rarely used around town.

Bob Wilson
 
ENirogus said:
I had anticipated more serial hydrids
Click to expand...
I agree. The only explanation that I could find that can explain this is my description of an ICE car company:
Earl said:
major divisions of a car company (power plants, power trains, emissions, fuel handling, cooling, etc) are dedicated to making the ICE work. There is a VP in charge of each division.
Click to expand...
The block diagram of a Prius, a Volt, Ford energi, etc almost mirrors the org chart of an ICE company. There is still a significant transmission in the parallel hybrids, thus guaranteeing that the big-guy in charge of transmissions will still remain a player.
There's also the paradigm shift that I recognized in a friend/colleague of mine who had a Ford energi vehicle. He was always thrilled with his mpg. It was good but he had about a 40 mile commute so he always had to burn gasoline. If you assume gasoline is inevitable, it turns out that the parallel drivetrain truly is the best way to maximize mpg. A serial hybrid is generally going to offer lower mpg than a parallel topology.
If you assume that the vast majority of your driving is on battery, then the gas mpg doesn't matter very much.
Apparently, this paradigm shift was hard to grasp. Probably more so by those who's livelihood depend on the gasoline components.
 
ENirogus said:
there is always going to be the range anxiety issue with EVs
Click to expand...
I agree with this in the early age of EVs.
However, once every exit on the highway has a Fast Charger, like we see with gas stations, and every long-term parking space has a Level 2 charger, the balance will shift. Likewise, as EVs proliferate, more remote and gas stations in weaker locations will start to go out of business and finding gas will become more of a challenge, increasing the range anxiety for them.
There will undoubtedly be a crossing point.
Tesla's have already gotten to the point where there is very little range anxiety along major interstates. If one is nervous about reaching the intended station, one can simply stop at a closer one.
The other day, I was set on making it to another place and pushed it down to 4% range on my GOM (guess-o-meter) because, 20 miles before my preferred destination, there was a CHAdeMO station I could have stopped at if I felt nervous. My GOM prediction had been very consistently hovering between 4 and 5% to my destination so, as I approached the CHAdeMO station, I was confident I could make it the remaining 20 miles. Had I felt any anxiety, a 5 minute stop at the CHAdeMO would have quickly allayed my anxiety.
 
The current Honda hybrids work as serial hybrid up to 45 mph , so driving these feel more EV like and the only PHEV from them is the Clarity with very few changes since 2018

Also their performance and handling better than Toyota hybrid models that relay on parallel hybrid mode

Dan


Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
 
I think it’s simpler than all this. Honda and Toyota are focused on maximizing profit. Period. Smart executives. Doesn’t matter if it comes from ICE, hybrid, EV, generators, or boat engines. That product line which give the company max profit gets max attention. Right now it’s easier for these 2 companies to make max profit with ICE and Hybrid than with EV. And market share of EVs in the car world is less than 10% of cars and will be for several more years. So they focus on ice and hybrid.

When that finally shifts elsewhere, their business and production will shift along with it. I frankly think they’re being smart, as I believe widespread EV adoption will be much slower than many here think. They seem to agree with me, so they’re making hay while the sun shines. And when the sun finally sets on ICE? Then they’ll change. In the meantime they maintain strong market shares and brand saturation while they put lots of money in the bank, while everyone else fights with each other over today’s tiny EV market share and supply chain issues of batteries and such. As those are slowly resolved with time, Honda and Toyota can and will jump in later. They already have the technology available and ready…EVs are much less complex than ICE vehicles, so it’s super easy for them to pivot toward EV when they feel the time is right in terms of market share and profitability.

I simply see smart business decisions being made, with primary focus being on the bottom line profits of those 2 companies. Some day in the future a move to EVs will likely be their best decision. But that day is not today.
 
Last edited:
craze1cars said:
Honda and Toyota are focused on maximizing profit
Click to expand...
So were Kodak, Blockbuster, Smith Corona, Baldwin Locomotive Works, Montgomery Wards, Palm, Handspring, etc.
First of all, executives are focused on maximizing their position within the company.
Therefore 'smart' executives 'wisely' avoid changing to a technology and/or business model they do not understand or control.
Those guys all figured it would be "super easy for them to pivot toward [fill in the blank] when they feel the time is right in terms of market share and profitability". How did that work out for them?
Did you
craze1cars said:
simply see smart business decisions being made, with primary focus being on the bottom line profits of those 2 companies
Click to expand...
with them?
When is their day going to come?
 
There's many factors at play that are delaying the Japanese manufacturers.

1. A decade or two ago, the Japanese ministry of trade, did some extensive research and modelling on how Japan could become more energy independent in the future. The results were an expectation that the transport sector mix in 2050 would be:
40% hybrid
40% plug in hybrid
10% fuel cell
10% battery electric

Part of this modelling predicted that BEVs would be small city cars only - like we commonly see in china today. Hence the first BEVs from Japanese manufacturers were on low range Mitsubishi iMev, Nissan Leaf, and even today the Honda E and Mazda MX30 are still mid-low range.

FWIW due to government mandates Toyota has brought this model forward to 2035.

2. The day the Tesla Model 3 entered production, Toyota had all of 2 staff (yeah that's right) working on battery electric vehicles.

3. Toyota's profit model is based on scale, and repositioning cheaper vehicles as luxury. Neither of which are conducive to high battery costs.

4. Toyota built their scale and profitability by creating a complex network of parts suppliers, many of which they have financial interests in. Many of which supply ICE power train parts. It's might hard to wind down a supplier you part own. There's a commitment that's hard to break.

5. The Japanese auto manufacturers haven't faced disruption. They were the disruptors, with low cost reliable vehicles. Even when the Koreans (Hyundai/Kea) entered the market, they weren't much of a concern. Initial the user last gen Japanese designs, so nothing much to worry about here, and recently they appear as equals in the market.

6. They all appear unwilling to enter the charging market, believing it's someone else problem, so they focus on the chick and egg. No chargers, so we can't sell BEVs.

7. Brand loyalty. History shows Toyota has some of the highest repurchase rates from previous owner. Toyota believes their existing customer will buy whatever they offer. So there's no urgency for them to offer less profitable BEVs.

8. Executive and board member influence:

Takeshi Uchiyamada
Chairman, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Mitsui & Co Ltd - energy portfolio focused on logistics and trading of energy resources such as oil, natural gas/LNG, coal and uranium
Jtekt Corp - heavily invested in transmission R&D

Akio Toyoda
President/CEO, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Denso Corp - heaving invested in supplying parts to the full range on vehicle power trains. Petrol, diesel, hybrid, electric, fuel cell

Shigeki Terashi
Member fo the board of directors, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Hino Motors, Ltd - heavy vehicles, and direct sales of industrial Diesel engines
EV C.A. Spirit Corp. - JV for electric vehicle concept - dissolved in 2020

I'll keep going when I have more time.
 
gooki said:
There's many factors at play that are delaying the Japanese manufacturers.

1. A decade or two ago, the Japanese ministry of trade, did some extensive research and modelling on how Japan could become more energy independent in the future. The results were an expectation that the transport sector mix in 2050 would be:
40% hybrid
40% plug in hybrid
10% fuel cell
10% battery electric

Part of this modelling predicted that BEVs would be small city cars only - like we commonly see in china today. Hence the first BEVs from Japanese manufacturers were on low range Mitsubishi iMev, Nissan Leaf, and even today the Honda E and Mazda MX30 are still mid-low range.

FWIW due to government mandates Toyota has brought this model forward to 2035.

2. The day the Tesla Model 3 entered production, Toyota had all of 2 staff (yeah that's right) working on battery electric vehicles.

3. Toyota's profit model is based on scale, and repositioning cheaper vehicles as luxury. Neither of which are conducive to high battery costs.

4. Toyota built their scale and profitability by creating a complex network of parts suppliers, many of which they have financial interests in. Many of which supply ICE power train parts. It's might hard to wind down a supplier you part own. There's a commitment that's hard to break.

5. The Japanese auto manufacturers haven't faced disruption. They were the disruptors, with low cost reliable vehicles. Even when the Koreans (Hyundai/Kea) entered the market, they weren't much of a concern. Initial the user last gen Japanese designs, so nothing much to worry about here, and recently they appear as equals in the market.

6. They all appear unwilling to enter the charging market, believing it's someone else problem, so they focus on the chick and egg. No chargers, so we can't sell BEVs.

7. Brand loyalty. History shows Toyota has some of the highest repurchase rates from previous owner. Toyota believes their existing customer will buy whatever they offer. So there's no urgency for them to offer less profitable BEVs.

8. Executive and board member influence:

Takeshi Uchiyamada
Chairman, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Mitsui & Co Ltd - energy portfolio focused on logistics and trading of energy resources such as oil, natural gas/LNG, coal and uranium
Jtekt Corp - heavily invested in transmission R&D

Akio Toyoda
President/CEO, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Denso Corp - heaving invested in supplying parts to the full range on vehicle power trains. Petrol, diesel, hybrid, electric, fuel cell

Shigeki Terashi
Member fo the board of directors, Toyota Motor Corp
Also a board member of
Hino Motors, Ltd - heavy vehicles, and direct sales of industrial Diesel engines
EV C.A. Spirit Corp. - JV for electric vehicle concept - dissolved in 2020

I'll keep going when I have more time.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information.

One reason I brought this subject up is that I feel since historically Japanese vehicles has the highest reliability , quality even out doing German cars, would be great to have longer range PHEV / electric from Honda and Toyota.

Dan
 
The "why" is because the demand for EVs is really unknown and the only point of EVERY car company is to make money. Gas cars are still extremely profitable and will be for a very long time.


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bwilson4web said:
Every company has a right to be wrong. So I spent my money on a Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx. In fact, I traded a Toyota Prius Prime, $18,300, for the Model 3.

Bob Wilson
Click to expand...

You didn't hurt any makers of gas powered cars. They still sold ever single one they had the capacity to produce.


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