Help choosing an EV for a familly of 5.

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Francois_008

New Member
Hello from Canada!

I currently own a Sienna. It's spacious, perfect for long trips with lots of gear and boring to drive. In other words: perfect.

But now, we need a 2nd vehicle. And while the Sienna is perfect for long familly trips, most of what we do is not that. Most of our mileage is going to work, grocery shopping, and local appointements.

So an EV would make a lot of sense as a 2nd vehicle. (It would become our main vehicle)

Ideally, I'd get a Model Y but that is way out of my budget. (And repairability is important to me)


Range:
I my commute to work is 15km one way. And sometime I may overnight, leaving the vehicle parked, not plugged, for a solid 24h in the winter.

Q1. How much battery does a car use to keep the battery warm at, worst case scenario, -30C? I am unsure how much range or KW I should add to my calculation for that.

Q2. How much capacity batteries are expected to loose after 10 years? 20%? 30%?

Althought not opposed to a plugin hybrid, the lower maintenance of a fully electric car is very appealing to me.

Car seats:
I have 3 kids in car seats (1 rear facing, 2 front facing). So I need to be able to fit 3 car seats in the back row. I don't mind buying specific, narrow, car seats, but I need the latch/tether for all 3 seats.

Availability:
I need the vehicle for january 2022.

Budget:
Ideally I'd look at buying slightly used (1-5 years) so I could avoid financing. Around 20k CAD.

But I am not strictly opposed to buying new, up to 40K CAD (final cost), if spending more means I get something that suits my needs better. My province offers 10k credit for plugin hybrid and fully electric.

Essential feature:
I absolutely want adaptive cruise control.



What are your thoughts and recommendations?

So far I was considering a Nissan leaf ($), a chevy bolt ($$) and a Rav4 Prime($$$).
 
I would go check out the Nissan Leaf to see if it meets your requirements for room. The Leaf is the best buy in electric vehicles. You might get lucky in January and find a 2021 SV Plus model left on the lot that meets your price.
 
Yeah I probably will, just trying to get a better understanding before confronting car salemen.

I read somewhere the Leaf has "the worst batteries". I assume this comment was total BS? Leafs batteries are still good after years of use?
 
You live in a cold weather climate. I don't think the traction battery is going to be an issue outside of the charging speed on the high power DC chargers.

You said you are planning to use the other vehicle for long trips, so fast charging is not likely an issue.

The only issue I see with the traction battery is that you are going to use a bit of the range in the winter for cabin heat. But the Leaf plus has over 321 km of range in the summer. So for local usage you should be fine.

Again, the big question: is there enough room for a growing family in a Nissan Leaf?

As to buying a used Leaf, it depends on the price. Here in the states, the local dealers are taking $7,500 USD off MSRP and the car qualifies for another $7,500 USD in tax credits. So the difference between used and new prices are close.

I do have to say I like buying used if you can score a deal.

Anyhow, go to the Nissan Leaf forum and see what they think. https://mynissanleaf.com/
 
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A Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid is a fantastic car with adaptive cruise control, but I get the feeling you're not in to replace your minivan or get a second one. If you're looking for value in a two-row EV, it's hard to beat the Leaf.
 
There is still a few Honda Clarity’s around. They call it a PHEV but really it’s an electric car with over 45 miles of range before the generator kicks in. A good buy with that rebate. Lots of room for 5. Biggest sedan Honda makes.
 
A Leaf new or used would meet your needs quite nicely. If you want active cruise control you're going to have to go with at least the SV trim and a 2018 model or later. I believe that active cruise is part of the assistive driving package.

Batteries: You never get a second chance to make a first impression. Nissan blew it all around with the first Leaf batteries failing miserably in hot climates. And they were real dickheads about making affordable replacements available at first. See my post :"Nissan gets black eye in Canada" in the Nissan section of this site. The battery chemistry has been much improved. The lack of active cooling is only a problem when taking long trips requiring more than one DCFC in hot weather. Your situation doesn't sound like this. I wouldn't be concerned about batteries in the 2018 or later.

Old limerick about cold: There once was a boy from Quebec, Buried in snow to his neck. When asked are you friz? He replied Yes I is but we don't call this cold in Quebec! Seriously all EVs lose substantial range (as much as 40%) when really cold. Heated seats and steering wheel are standard equipment with the Leaf and they greatly cut down on the amount of range killing cabin heating. The SV and SL trim also have the hybrid heating system (using the a/c as a pump for heating) so when moderately cold you'll use less power for heating. At minus 30c however heat pumps don't work and your resistance heating will kick in.

My personal experience with the Leaf is that it's super reliable in the cold and snow. Mine is parked outside year round and some cold nights I've deliberately left it unplugged without noticing less range showing on the GOM when starting off in the morning. With a good set of winter tires you'll have no problem at all getting around in even deep snow but you'll want to get them on early. The factory tires are a disaster with even the slightest amount of snow.

Whatever EV you choose your problem is going to be that no one is going to want to use the ICE vehicle for most applications.
 
Paul K said:
Seriously all EVs lose substantial range (as much as 40%) when really cold.
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I'd like to see some performance analyses under various conditions of the different battery manufacturers and their chemistry. The CATL batteries in my Mini Cooper SE hold up unbelievably well in extreme cold, sort of the polar opposite of Nissan's batteries (pun intended).
 
Puppethead said:
I'd like to see some performance analyses under various conditions of the different battery manufacturers and their chemistry. The CATL batteries in my Mini Cooper SE hold up unbelievably well in extreme cold, sort of the polar opposite of Nissan's batteries (pun intended).
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Only a small part of the winter range loss is due to cold battery. The biggest killer is the resistive heater in my Leaf S which knocks about 20% off the range according to the GOM. Cold air is more dense so more energy is used plowing through it on the highway. The winter tires have more rolling resistance.

I did experiment on a long run in the cold by deliberately heating the battery up with an L3 charger to a little over 80% SOC then charging the rest of the way to full using an L2. The temp indicator was showing 6 bars out of 12 at that point. The GOM was showing about 230km without the heater on. Right now I get anywhere from 265 to 295 with the warmer outside temps and summer tires.

I don't know the exact proportions but 40% loss is my most extreme case when it's below -15C and I'm using the resistive heater. So with 20% from the heater the remaining 20% is divided up between cold air, winter tires and the colder battery. My old Saturn still gives 6litres/100km in the summer but in the winter uses as much as 7.5. So ICE cars have an extreme cold range loss as well.

I'm glad for you that your Mini's batteries work well in the cold as well. I would be curious to know how your full charge GOM varies from hot summer to dead of winter under otherwise similar driving conditions.
 
I created a whole thread on Winter Battery Efficiency of the SE last winter, including some -20 ºF and colder drives. My range dropped to about 100 miles (car has an EPA rating of 110 miles), which would be about 10%. The SE has a heat pump, which the LEAF does not, so that could be making a huge difference. Although many of my winter examples were below temperatures where the heat pump would be effective and resistance heating was providing the heat. Under the extreme arctic conditions I was getting about 90 miles, so about 20% drop in official range. I also put Nokian Hakkapeliitta R3 winter tires (very low rolling resistance) on my SE with very light wheels to optimize as much as possible for winter.

A heat pump may be more important than the various battery performance curves, but I do think it would be nice to see some scientific analyses. It would sort of be like comparing the power output of difference ICE engine designs.
 
Hopefully something I say can help you. Family of 6 who has a 2004 odyssey we use for full family trips still (gets about 4000miles a year), 2018 clarity PHEV touring (18k miles/yr) and a 2015 leaf (about 8-10k/yr). 80-82% of the clarity driving is on battery. Most of our driving is local with 3-5 people at a time. 1 in a booster and other 2 in the back are fit girl athletes ages 11 and 15 usually.

seating-you can do 3 in the back on a Leaf but it is tight and I would not like it if it was regular. Kids do complain if we do it much. With 3 car boosters, buckling would be a pain. Clarity gives more room. Kids still complain if too much driving with 3 back there but sometimes I switch them out and sit back there. I don’t think it is terrible. Bolt- test drove. Tried to put 3 in back- hated it. Someone mentioned the Pacifica hybrid. When we were looking for out first EV/PHEV that is what I thought we would get before driving. My wife immediately said no after the test drive- head rests are very uncomfortable and drove the roughest out of any phev/EV we drove (which is too bad as I would love to get rid of our gas guzzling van)

comfort/drive- the clarity is a dream in EV mode and is the nicest car I have owned. (Prior Camry’s and briefly an accord) Feels like a luxury vehicle in electric. Leaf drives like the EV equivalent of a Corolla (not bad, but a different level and feels cheaper in ride)

Cold weather- as people indicate range depends more on how much you heat. I live in northeast Washington state so colder for us but not terrible. When I drive either vehicle in winter I have the temp set to 67F. Get 40-42 miles range on the clarity. My wife sets it to 86F (yep you read that right) and gets about 32-35 miles EV. Daughter sets heat at about 80 on leaf. Gets about 55-60 miles in winter. I get about 70. Clarity manual says won’t start if <-17F. I think Canadian model goes lower but not sure. I think the leaf also has a similar lower temp limit.

leaf has 65k miles, no bars lost- summer we still get about 80 mile range (bought used 2 years ago so can’t comment on original real range) Clarity got 55 miles new in EV. Has 54k miles. Summer range is 45 and has not declined in last 1 year.

Maintainance- leaf - we change off all seasons and winter tires (we live on a steep hill). Maintenance visit otherwise every 15k (so getting first soon since we owned). Clarity phev - same tire swaps. It tells us to replace oil every 7.5k (which at times has been 500 miles gas). Since tires need rotated and our dealer offers package of oil changes and rotations x3 for $100 we have done that so <$100/yr, one alignment. Change air filters myself and that is all the maintenance so far. Little more but not marked yet.

final thoughts. Though I love my clarity if price is close after rebates - model 3 would be slightly better for 3 in back since no center bump in floor for middle passenger.
 
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