Hello knowledgeable people, I would appreciate some guidance here. I want to buy an EV capable of getting me down and up the mountain 2 1/2 times. I live in Julian CA and the nearest big town is down the hill in Alpine. About 35 miles away. There is one charger in Alpine but it is expensive. Cheap or free chargers are farther away, maybe 15 miles, in El Cajon. I currently have a 20 year old gas guzzling Ford Ranger. I am really upset by the thought of how much rubbish I spew into the air when I travel down the hill. And I do that often, 3 or 4 times a week. But I just can't tolerate the situation anymore. So, I need to find an EV I can afford, and critically important, that I can charge down in the city. I am off grid , so I can't charge it at my home. The financial side is important. Initially I planned on a new EV, maybe a Kona (when you live in the back of beyond you need room for provisions) but I am now thinking recent used. Maybe 2019, 2018. So, here are my worries: 1) can I charge the car relatively quickly, within 30 - 45 minutes? 2) where can I charge it and how much would it cost? 3) does it have enough range to get me down, up, and at least down again, or better yet, down, up ,down, up, down? 4) if I buy recent used, where should I look? 5) in five years, assuming batteries have changed and are better, would one be able to change out an old battery and install the newer kind? What I'm stumbling about with here is the fact that EVs are simpler machines than gas vehicles. So I'm wondering if that means that battery tech could change significantly in the future but an old EV could accommodate any changes. I will retire in a few months, and I had thought I would just bite the bullet and buy a new EV. But I'm thinking now I shouldn't dip into savings to do that and besides it probably isn't necessary given that EVs are so much simpler, and therefore will probably last longer than a gas vehicle. Apologies for the length of this, but I am really need some guidance. Thanks, Kavade
Guidance, please?
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We just bought a Kona and you can store a lot in the back, you can also setup a "Frunk" under the hood that can store quite a bit, although I have not yet done this, we have only had the car for a couple of weeks.
There is also a compartment under a board in the back that normally has the tire emergency kit and the portable charger, you can easily move these things around to free up more space.
As for charging, you can use DC Fast Chargers to
Charge from 0 to 80% I'm about 45 minutes.
As for cost, it depends on thenetwork (avoid Blink), it can be the equivalent of anywhere from $0.80 to $2.25 a gallon of gas. Right now, sign up with EvGo on their COVID plan if you qualify and it is $0.19. but EVpassport is promising unlimited charging for $39 per month.
As for charging at home, you say you are off the grid, but I have to ask what you do for electricity at home? I am guessing you have some in order to post online, charge your phone, etc.
At most a level 2 charger for a Kona will take 7.8kw and you can go lower with either a switchable charger or with settings in the car.
Don's market in Santa Ysabel has a level 2 charger, I would stay plugged in more than 2 hours as the price increases dramatically, but 2 hours should add close to 20%.
It looks like your closest fast charger will be at Santee Trolley Square, it is a 50kw charger, so it will take slightly longer than the 75+kw chargers.
Looks like the closest is an Electrify America Chargers at Walmart Mission Valley. With Electrify America, sign up for the special Hyundai plan for now.
Alternatively, Pala Road Park and Ride has a free quick chargers and Murrieta City Hall has one that is free for the first two hours, not that you would be there that long.
The Kona has a decent range, not sure how it would do going up to Julian and back yet though. That being said, we are going to be doing a mini getaway (from Long Beach) to San Diego next weekend, I can try to talk the wife into going up to Julian in our Kona Electric and see how it fairs, especially since our hotel has free chargers.
As for affordability, go to the following URL and enter your ZIP code and it will tell you all of the rebates you might be able to get and since you live in San Diego county, you can get pre-approved to use one that is up to something like $7,000 as your down payment even:
https://plugstar.zappyride.com/tools/incentives
These can make vehicles more affordable, if the Kona doesn't work well for you, there is the upcoming all electric Ford Mustang SUV, yes it is both a Mustang and SUV, there is also a Cadillac coming out. I would suggest the Tesla Model X, but that doesn't fall into the affordable range and doesn't qualify for the full federal rebate.
Hopefully this information is helpful for you.
There is also a compartment under a board in the back that normally has the tire emergency kit and the portable charger, you can easily move these things around to free up more space.
As for charging, you can use DC Fast Chargers to
Charge from 0 to 80% I'm about 45 minutes.
As for cost, it depends on thenetwork (avoid Blink), it can be the equivalent of anywhere from $0.80 to $2.25 a gallon of gas. Right now, sign up with EvGo on their COVID plan if you qualify and it is $0.19. but EVpassport is promising unlimited charging for $39 per month.
As for charging at home, you say you are off the grid, but I have to ask what you do for electricity at home? I am guessing you have some in order to post online, charge your phone, etc.
At most a level 2 charger for a Kona will take 7.8kw and you can go lower with either a switchable charger or with settings in the car.
Don's market in Santa Ysabel has a level 2 charger, I would stay plugged in more than 2 hours as the price increases dramatically, but 2 hours should add close to 20%.
It looks like your closest fast charger will be at Santee Trolley Square, it is a 50kw charger, so it will take slightly longer than the 75+kw chargers.
Looks like the closest is an Electrify America Chargers at Walmart Mission Valley. With Electrify America, sign up for the special Hyundai plan for now.
Alternatively, Pala Road Park and Ride has a free quick chargers and Murrieta City Hall has one that is free for the first two hours, not that you would be there that long.
The Kona has a decent range, not sure how it would do going up to Julian and back yet though. That being said, we are going to be doing a mini getaway (from Long Beach) to San Diego next weekend, I can try to talk the wife into going up to Julian in our Kona Electric and see how it fairs, especially since our hotel has free chargers.
As for affordability, go to the following URL and enter your ZIP code and it will tell you all of the rebates you might be able to get and since you live in San Diego county, you can get pre-approved to use one that is up to something like $7,000 as your down payment even:
https://plugstar.zappyride.com/tools/incentives
These can make vehicles more affordable, if the Kona doesn't work well for you, there is the upcoming all electric Ford Mustang SUV, yes it is both a Mustang and SUV, there is also a Cadillac coming out. I would suggest the Tesla Model X, but that doesn't fall into the affordable range and doesn't qualify for the full federal rebate.
Hopefully this information is helpful for you.
Hi cmwade,
Thanks for the info on the Kona. It seems to have more storage than I realized. And I didn't realize that Don's had a charge station, but it is
on the opposite side of the mountain from me. Useful if I go that way, though.
I was reading http://www.evelectricity.com/charging-ev/ and I am starting to think my situation just won't work with an EV.
I can handle inconvenience, but it is starting to look to me as though relying on an EV while living in a remote area off grid area
is just not practical. My home is powered by solar only - I have enough electricity for my household needs, but that's it. No more.
Well, I may just have to wait a few years. I hate that thought, but I don't see how this could work at this time.
Anyone who can tell me otherwise, please do. I'd love to get rid of this gas guzzling smog spewing truck I have.
Thanks for the info on the Kona. It seems to have more storage than I realized. And I didn't realize that Don's had a charge station, but it is
on the opposite side of the mountain from me. Useful if I go that way, though.
I was reading http://www.evelectricity.com/charging-ev/ and I am starting to think my situation just won't work with an EV.
I can handle inconvenience, but it is starting to look to me as though relying on an EV while living in a remote area off grid area
is just not practical. My home is powered by solar only - I have enough electricity for my household needs, but that's it. No more.
Well, I may just have to wait a few years. I hate that thought, but I don't see how this could work at this time.
Anyone who can tell me otherwise, please do. I'd love to get rid of this gas guzzling smog spewing truck I have.
Well, not knowing your solar system, I don't know if you have room to add to it, but that would be one possibility, there may even be some rebates that would pay for some, maybe all of this since it would be used for an EV and installations costs for EV stations are covered by some rebates.
Most of the charging stations I mentioned would be in reasonable locations.
But another viable alternative might be a plug-in Hybrid. I am thinking the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV could be a good fit:
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2020
This would allow you to ditch the gas guzzler with something that gets around 70 MPG and dip your toe into the EV world. The issue here is the range is only 22 miles on all electric vs something like the Kona having a 259+ mile range, but I may be a good fit. The outlander offers quick charging, something lost PHEVs don't offer.
Some other choices that don't offer quick charging is the Chevrolet Bolt, Chrysler Pacifica and Hyundai Ioniq.
As I said, I really can't tell you yet if something like the Kona would work without trying to go up there. I could then give you a better idea of what you would be looking at and we might because...well Apple Pie....LOL
That being said, my other concern would be the winters up there due to the fact it gets cold enough to snow and that could affect an EVs range, but it depends what you would have when you get back. The plug-in hybrids could get around this by running on gas in the cold.
Most of the charging stations I mentioned would be in reasonable locations.
But another viable alternative might be a plug-in Hybrid. I am thinking the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV could be a good fit:
https://www.mitsubishicars.com/outlander-phev/2020
This would allow you to ditch the gas guzzler with something that gets around 70 MPG and dip your toe into the EV world. The issue here is the range is only 22 miles on all electric vs something like the Kona having a 259+ mile range, but I may be a good fit. The outlander offers quick charging, something lost PHEVs don't offer.
Some other choices that don't offer quick charging is the Chevrolet Bolt, Chrysler Pacifica and Hyundai Ioniq.
As I said, I really can't tell you yet if something like the Kona would work without trying to go up there. I could then give you a better idea of what you would be looking at and we might because...well Apple Pie....LOL
That being said, my other concern would be the winters up there due to the fact it gets cold enough to snow and that could affect an EVs range, but it depends what you would have when you get back. The plug-in hybrids could get around this by running on gas in the cold.
When you buy an EV, you are also buying the charging network. Using www.plugshare.com, I got this map of just the non-Tesla charging locations:
As a general rule of thumb for home charging, you'll need 30-40 A, 240 VAC on a 50 A, 240 VAC, 12 kW source (using the 80% rule,) for practical home charging. You'll need to find the internal charger rate such as ~7.2 kW on our 2014 BMW i3-REx and 2019 Tesla Model 3. What works best is to charge the car while sleeping or otherwise engaged.
You report being "off grid." You can get by with less than a 50 A, 240 VAC circuit. But if you have solar, direct night charging won't be practical. Even wind turbines slow down at night. If your "off grid" system stores energy in a battery bank, there will conversion and heat losses.
If you really want a pure EV, this is one of those times you might want to identify a grid demarcation point to put in a 100 A service with an all-weather, NEMA 14-50 outlet. But there will be some negotiations needed with the property owner at the demarcation point.
PLUG-IN Hybrids
Plugshare shows ~32 miles each way. IMHO, you should have at least 2x the EV range, 64 miles plus 5 miles for errands, 69 miles EV range. So I would recommend an end-of-lease, 2015 or later BMW i3-REx:
- 72 mi EV range
- 80 mi gas range
It helps to provide a 15 A, 120 VAC circuit for the default charger. Slow, yes, it also provides energy to maintain the battery. Also, parts and maintenance from BMW can be pricy and the tires have a relatively short life, ~25-30,000 miles.
GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson
R P
Well-Known Member
Can't you just buy more solar panels? They are getting cheaper all the time. Might have to upgrade your solar charge controller and/or your inverter, but that extra cost should more than offset the gas guzzler costs.
interestedinEV
Well-Known Member
@cmwade77 has given some good suggestions
Let me try and synthesize what you have said
So realistically, I would see these options
A. Get a more fuel efficient ICE
B. Get a Plug-in (PHEV). You could charge when you are at El Cajon and make it back on electricity for all or most of the way and if you are careful on your way down you could minimize gas consumption.
C: Get a Hybrid SUV, but again given it is mainly high speed driving, it may not be that good.
My suggestion would be a plug in hybrid. It reduces the amount of emissions you spew, it also minimizes your risk.
Also, if you put more solar panels, you could possible partially charge the PHEV at home. In which case you could make it most of the way in both directions on electricity. And you always have a gas back up.
My 1-c-
Let me try and synthesize what you have said
- You have no charging at home, all charging has to be public
- You need to charge in about say 45 minutes. Remember chargers may not be available the time you get there, there may be a couple of people ahead of you. So don't expect that is going to be in and out every time, sometimes you have to wait. What happens if that day the charger is not working.
- Nearest reasonably priced public charging is 50 miles away, with the nearest charger @ 35 miles
- You have a lot of mountain climbing to do, the energy regenerated would not be as much as energy expended in climbing.
- You currently have a 20 year old gas guzzler
So realistically, I would see these options
A. Get a more fuel efficient ICE
B. Get a Plug-in (PHEV). You could charge when you are at El Cajon and make it back on electricity for all or most of the way and if you are careful on your way down you could minimize gas consumption.
C: Get a Hybrid SUV, but again given it is mainly high speed driving, it may not be that good.
My suggestion would be a plug in hybrid. It reduces the amount of emissions you spew, it also minimizes your risk.
Also, if you put more solar panels, you could possible partially charge the PHEV at home. In which case you could make it most of the way in both directions on electricity. And you always have a gas back up.
My 1-c-
@interestedinEV I agree that a PHEV seems like the most practical solution in this case.
Given that cargo space is an issue, I would suggest either the Mitsubishi Outlander or Chrysler Pacifica. I would avoid the Ford CMAX Energi. There is the Honda Clarity if a sedan is wanted that has a fair amount of trunk space as well.
Many of these PHEVs will qualify for a good point of the rebates I mentioned previously as well. Go to the same website and it will tell you what you might be able to qualify for and it can really knock down the price of a new vehicle dramatically.
Given that cargo space is an issue, I would suggest either the Mitsubishi Outlander or Chrysler Pacifica. I would avoid the Ford CMAX Energi. There is the Honda Clarity if a sedan is wanted that has a fair amount of trunk space as well.
Many of these PHEVs will qualify for a good point of the rebates I mentioned previously as well. Go to the same website and it will tell you what you might be able to qualify for and it can really knock down the price of a new vehicle dramatically.
Fastnf
Well-Known Member
I am going to address your concerns about elevation and range. I own a Kona and live in Tehachapi at 4000 feet elevation. So all my travels are up and down grades. I can drive to Bakersfield a 3500 elevation change and 100mile round trip. I get hone with around 50 percent battery charge. I could do it twice without to much concern. Another trip I make is to Valencia. 2800 elevation 160 miles round trip. I usually get home with close to 100 mile of range left. For your 64 mile round trip with 2600 feet of elevation change I would have no concern doing 2.5 trips. I would expect from my experience that you would arrive at the charger after 2.5 trips with some where around 80 miles of charge. So at least with the Hyundai kona or and Kia E-Niro range would not be a problem. Even getting to El Cajon would be reasonable. You might have range anxiety until you become comfortable and trust the car but this usually happens pretty quick.
The second point charging. Both of these cars come with 115 volt 12 amp chargers and while they are not fast they will charge the car. With 4 more solar panels and 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter you could charge the car for about 8 hrs and add 40 miles for each day of charging if you had a couple of day between trips you could easily add enough charge to make the round trip. Charging does not have to be with 240 volts. Its also possible to charge at 120 volts and 24 amps and add over 80 mile per day but that would require a bigger solar array and inverter
A side benefit is that you can hook a the 2000w (limited to 1200 watts draw) 12 volt inverter to the car battery and have enough power to run the basics in a house for a week and still have enough charge to drive down to El Cajon to recharge and bring electricity back to the house for cloudy days.
The second point charging. Both of these cars come with 115 volt 12 amp chargers and while they are not fast they will charge the car. With 4 more solar panels and 2000 watt pure sine wave inverter you could charge the car for about 8 hrs and add 40 miles for each day of charging if you had a couple of day between trips you could easily add enough charge to make the round trip. Charging does not have to be with 240 volts. Its also possible to charge at 120 volts and 24 amps and add over 80 mile per day but that would require a bigger solar array and inverter
A side benefit is that you can hook a the 2000w (limited to 1200 watts draw) 12 volt inverter to the car battery and have enough power to run the basics in a house for a week and still have enough charge to drive down to El Cajon to recharge and bring electricity back to the house for cloudy days.
Wow. Thank you all for the plentiful information. I am planning on adding more panels for the house - I'm sort of at the minimum now- so I guess
I should seriously consider adding substantially more. It would require another inverter. I'm on 24 v now and I have been considering changing to a 48v
system. I wonder if that would be beneficial in terms of an EV?? And the other possibility mentioned about negotiating with a neighbor for a grid connection,
well, that had never entered my head but yes, I can imagine it might be possible. Some people up here have gone the hybrid route, so I'll think about that too.
Again, thank you all for your help. You have all given me a good deal to mull over. Oh, and what about aging batteries? How is that dealt with? My gas truck
is 20 years old, and if it were not gas I could happily keep it until it died. Is it common to put new batteries in old EVs?
I should seriously consider adding substantially more. It would require another inverter. I'm on 24 v now and I have been considering changing to a 48v
system. I wonder if that would be beneficial in terms of an EV?? And the other possibility mentioned about negotiating with a neighbor for a grid connection,
well, that had never entered my head but yes, I can imagine it might be possible. Some people up here have gone the hybrid route, so I'll think about that too.
Again, thank you all for your help. You have all given me a good deal to mull over. Oh, and what about aging batteries? How is that dealt with? My gas truck
is 20 years old, and if it were not gas I could happily keep it until it died. Is it common to put new batteries in old EVs?
Fastnf
Well-Known Member
Not usually. Most EV's come with an 8-10 year battery warranty. It looking like the current EV batteries should be usable beyond 12 years but then again there aren't many 15 year old EV's. Batteries are improving exponentially so it wouldn't be surprising to see them last well over 15 years with out significant degradation. Time will tell.
The Kona for example comes with either a lifetime battery warranty or a 10 year/100,000 mile warranty. If the battery degrades below 70% during the warranty, they should replace it free of charge.
Then after the warranty, if the battery is degraded there are companies that will recondition them for a fraction of the cost of a new battery and get them close to about 90%. Alternatively by that point there will be third party companies that should be able to put an upgraded battery in for even more range.
At this point it isn't common to put new batteries in used EVs, but I think that will change over time.
Then after the warranty, if the battery is degraded there are companies that will recondition them for a fraction of the cost of a new battery and get them close to about 90%. Alternatively by that point there will be third party companies that should be able to put an upgraded battery in for even more range.
At this point it isn't common to put new batteries in used EVs, but I think that will change over time.
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Fastnf
Well-Known Member
The advantages of 48 volts over 24 volts are lower amps and smaller wire sizes on the DC side of the inverter. Also less heat loss affecting efficiency. As far as EV's go it depends on how quickly you want to charge. If you are going to slow charge at 1.4 kw then it probably doesn't make a big difference. At 24 volts you would be drawing about 60 amps DC at 48 volts it would be 30 amps dc. On the other hand if you want to charge at the maximum 7.2 Kw then you would definitely want to have 48 volts As you wold be drawing 150 amps DC as opposed to 300 amps DC at 24 volts. The bigger the system the more you want to be using 48 Volts DC.
interestedinEV
Well-Known Member
Exactly, @kavade you have been given a lot of information. If you go for a vechile with ~250 mile range, you are going to have a bigger battery. A bigger battery means longer charging time i.e. more kwh that needs to be poured in. You can reduce charging time by having a more powerful charger (L3 for example) where you have higher voltage and more amps.
However, given your situation (that you are dependent on solar power and small system), you are not going to be able to charge a BEV like Kona or Tesla at home in a reasonable amount of time. So you would need to make trips to a more powerful charger on a regular basis.
With a PHEV, you have a smaller battery (smaller range) and you could possibly charge at home say on the days you are home the whole day or using battery power. Downside is that you may have to use gas more often than a person who has L2 charger at home and shorter commutes. The upside is you will never be stranded much as you can should be able to find gas station nearby.
So now it becomes your preference. Your comfort level. What alternatives would you have for example someone near by who has a 240V power circuit like a clothes washer or a mechanics shop who can help you in a pinch to get charged enough to get to a L3 charger.? The knowledgeable people on this forum can help you if you have narrowed down an option (BEV or PHEV) but for now I think you have as much information as you could possibly get.
Another choice for ER-EVs is the Chevy Volt. You can get a used one for cheaper than a BMW i3 and still get good range.
In warm weather I get 100km around the city. I don’t know your roads but if you can keep the speed to 80-90km/h (50-55 m/h) you could make it to the charger and back on EV. Now it doesn’t have fast charging but if you don’t get enough charge you can fall back on a little gas to get you home or your second trip.
As others have mentioned, you could charge at home if you beef up your solar to 1.4kW, about 13 hours for a full charge. In an emergency you could also power your home as it will let you charge 1/4 of the battery from gas in about 5 minutes.
Space wise it’s a fastback so it has a deep hatch, though it tapers towards the bumper so it depends on what you need to haul.
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In warm weather I get 100km around the city. I don’t know your roads but if you can keep the speed to 80-90km/h (50-55 m/h) you could make it to the charger and back on EV. Now it doesn’t have fast charging but if you don’t get enough charge you can fall back on a little gas to get you home or your second trip.
As others have mentioned, you could charge at home if you beef up your solar to 1.4kW, about 13 hours for a full charge. In an emergency you could also power your home as it will let you charge 1/4 of the battery from gas in about 5 minutes.
Space wise it’s a fastback so it has a deep hatch, though it tapers towards the bumper so it depends on what you need to haul.
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I just saw this https://www.motor1.com/news/439923/nio-battery-as-service-lease/
recently, and I was intrigued. It was sort of what I had been wondering about previously, that is, replaceable batteries. Does anyone
have observations/opinions on this ?
And cmwade, did you ever get up to Julian in your Kona? If so, how did it go?
There was an Israel company, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place_(company), that tried that approach but went out of business. To get CARB credits, Tesla demonstrated one for Model S ... and then everyone had a moment of common sense.
So this is my Model 3 charging curve:
So this is my Model 3 charging curve:
- Went to bathroom
- Picked up some snacks
- Back on the road
I did not make it up to Julian.....the wife said no at that time due to so much being closed and it not being apple season.....lol
But we did just drive up to Arroyo Grande, CA and while technically we didn't need to charge on the way, my wife needed to stop for a restroom break, so I charged for 15 minutes while she went into Trader Joe's (one of the only open restrooms in the area we were at right now) and added about 20%. Worked out well, but was completely unnecessary despite the elevation changes.
We did start off at close to 100%.
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