Guidance, please?

  • Thread starter Thread starter kavade
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kavade said:
I just saw this https://www.motor1.com/news/439923/nio-battery-as-service-lease/
recently, and I was intrigued. It was sort of what I had been wondering about previously, that is, replaceable batteries. Does anyone
have observations/opinions on this ?

And cmwade, did you ever get up to Julian in your Kona? If so, how did it go?
Click to expand...
As for the battery swap option, honestly, I don't see that being successful in the US, simply put most EV drivers will charge at home overnight, even in apartment complexes as more and more apartment complexes add charging stations and are required to allow you to do so.

I could see the battery leasing working for a while until Tesla and cars like the Kona prove that buying is cheaper in the long run.
 
kavade said:
I just saw this https://www.motor1.com/news/439923/nio-battery-as-service-lease/
recently, and I was intrigued. It was sort of what I had been wondering about previously, that is, replaceable batteries. Does anyone
have observations/opinions on this ?
Click to expand...


I guess this comes with having been forum for too long :). There was a discussion in this topic over a year and half back and Tesla tried it with Model S.

https://www.insideevsforum.com/comm...e-a-question-for-you-experts.4936/#post-54433

While you may want to read the thread, here are some highlights

  1. You would need a lot of automation to quickly switch batteries in say even 5-10 minutes
  2. Let us say you have bought a new car with a new battery. 2 weeks later you swap out the batteries for a 10 year old battery. Are you going to be happy? Hence it will work if you have leased car or the battery.
  3. Alternatively, if you have a fleet (say Waymo, buses, taxis etc.), you can invest in this. If you have a 1000 taxis and instead of having 60-70% available at any given time, if you invest in spare batteries and automation, you can increase availability to say 90 or 95%
 
interestedinEV said:
I guess this comes with having been forum for too long :). There was a discussion in this topic over a year and half back and Tesla tried it with Model S.

https://www.insideevsforum.com/comm...e-a-question-for-you-experts.4936/#post-54433

While you may want to read the thread, here are some highlights

  1. You would need a lot of automation to quickly switch batteries in say even 5-10 minutes
  2. Let us say you have bought a new car with a new battery. 2 weeks later you swap out the batteries for a 10 year old battery. Are you going to be happy? Hence it will work if you have leased car or the battery.
  3. Alternatively, if you have a fleet (say Waymo, buses, taxis etc.), you can invest in this. If you have a 1000 taxis and instead of having 60-70% available at any given time, if you invest in spare batteries and automation, you can increase availability to say 90 or 95%
Click to expand...
Thank you for the information. After the helpful replies I got here 6 months ago, it seemed clear to me that given how remote
my home is, an EV just wouldn't work. However, it now appears that two charging stations are planned for my area, one only 3 miles from my
home. Of course planning and realization are two different things, but the State has noticed that my area has nothing, and doing
something about it seems likely. So, I am not so worried about that now. But I am still wondering if it is possible to install a better
(meaning more range) battery later. At the Leaf forum there is talk about this and the answer appears to be Yes, it's possible.
And somewhere I ran across this: in late 2019 Nissan USA released a 40kWh pack pre-programmed to be compatible with 2016-2017 Leafs which were originally fitted with 30kWh packs. This clearly goes against their earlier claims.

So if I buy a used EV, say a 2017 Leaf, I could put in a battery capable of more range. Is that right? If so, I wonder how the money
equation plays out. And I also wonder if other manufacturers, Hyundai for example, might offer this option also.

I really, really want to be done with ICE, but can I practically speaking do it?
If anyone can offer opinions/clarification as I try to get my head around EVs, I would appreciate it. I find the subject
kind of confusing.
 
kavade said:
Thank you for the information. After the helpful replies I got here 6 months ago, it seemed clear to me that given how remote
my home is, an EV just wouldn't work. However, it now appears that two charging stations are planned for my area, one only 3 miles from my
home. Of course planning and realization are two different things, but the State has noticed that my area has nothing, and doing
something about it seems likely. So, I am not so worried about that now. But I am still wondering if it is possible to install a better
(meaning more range) battery later. At the Leaf forum there is talk about this and the answer appears to be Yes, it's possible.
And somewhere I ran across this: in late 2019 Nissan USA released a 40kWh pack pre-programmed to be compatible with 2016-2017 Leafs which were originally fitted with 30kWh packs. This clearly goes against their earlier claims.

So if I buy a used EV, say a 2017 Leaf, I could put in a battery capable of more range. Is that right? If so, I wonder how the money
equation plays out. And I also wonder if other manufacturers, Hyundai for example, might offer this option also.

I really, really want to be done with ICE, but can I practically speaking do it?
If anyone can offer opinions/clarification as I try to get my head around EVs, I would appreciate it. I find the subject
kind of confusing.
Click to expand...


The answer is yes and no. Yes it is possible to put a larger battery in any car. No its not practical or economical by the time you pay for the larger battery and figure out the engineering to install it or pay to have it installed you will have spent more than it cost to get a newer long range EV. Bolt EV new can be had for around $25 K. Used Bolts are available at even lower prices. In a few years as the cars get older there will be even better options. I saw someone leased a Kona for $177 a month last week. The options are coming just be patient.
 
Fastnf said:
The answer is yes and no. Yes it is possible to put a larger battery in any car. No its not practical or economical by the time you pay for the larger battery and figure out the engineering to install it or pay to have it installed you will have spent more than it cost to get a newer long range EV. Bolt EV new can be had for around $25 K. Used Bolts are available at even lower prices. In a few years as the cars get older there will be even better options. I saw someone leased a Kona for $177 a month last week. The options are coming just be patient.
Click to expand...

$177? Gee, that's not bad at all. Thanks for the reply. Huh! Very interesting.
 
Fastnf said:
Here is a link to the thread. Its on page 3 post # 60

https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/price-paid-for-kona-electric.6858/page-3
Click to expand...

FastNF, thank you very much for the link. And by the way, do you (or anyone?) know anything about Nissan's e-power Note?
I see them all over Japan, but they are not available in the States yet. If I understand it correctly, it is
a battery powered vehicle, but the battery is charged by a small gas generator. Not ideal, but a lot better than
my ancient gas Ranger. I'm just curious to know what the informed folks on this forum think of that option.
Thanks again for the link. I will check it out right now.
 
kavade said:
FastNF, thank you very much for the link. And by the way, do you (or anyone?) know anything about Nissan's e-power Note?
I see them all over Japan, but they are not available in the States yet. If I understand it correctly, it is
a battery powered vehicle, but the battery is charged by a small gas generator. Not ideal, but a lot better than
my ancient gas Ranger. I'm just curious to know what the informed folks on this forum think of that option.
Thanks again for the link. I will check it out right now.
Click to expand...

If your looking for something with a range extender (generator) you might consider a used BMW I3 REX. They price out at between $10-and 20K depending on the year. The people who have them seem to swear by them. They have been out since 2014
 
Fastnf said:
If your looking for something with a range extender (generator) you might consider a used BMW I3 REX. They price out at between $10-and 20K depending on the year. The people who have them seem to swear by them. They have been out since 2014
Click to expand...

Thank you. I'll look into that too.
 
EV and plug-in hybrids are getting much better and today's batteries, new, will have peak capacity. Today's batteries will gradually decline over time, ~3-5% first year and ~1-2% each year later. I recommend:
  • +50-100 mile EV range - saving 90% of your trips and having a 'bug out' capability
  • hybrid with vehicle-to-load capability like my modification to a 2003 Prius
  • buy used, ideally 'end-of-lease' for first vehicle - it will teach valuable lessons that forum posts can not
  • use "completed" eBay sales prices to get the lowest price to shoot for
  • Pick two: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP -- I recommend GOOD and CHEAP so patient snipping for a good deal makes sense
My recommended practice is to use eBay to search for your first, plug-in hybrid. Again, end-of-lease is ideal because the previous owner wants to avoid end-of-lease charges but single owner can work. Join forums dedicated to candidate vehicles as you'll learn what works and doesn't and many have 'sale' subforms that might lead to a good buy. Candidates:
  • 2015-current BMW i3-REx - avoid first year 2014 (I own one) as there were some infantile problems. Sad to say, I've not tried to enable the REx as a source for vehicle-to-load. It may yet be possible using some diagnostic tricks.
  • Chevy Volt
  • Honda Clarity
  • Hyundai Ioniq - low EV range
  • Kia Niro - low EV range
I share your goals and want to suggest a path to low cost, minimum risk, and acceptable performance. In 5-10 years, you'll have options barely dreamed today and the experience to 'choose wisely.'

Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
EV and plug-in hybrids are getting much better and today's batteries, new, will have peak capacity. Today's batteries will gradually decline over time, ~3-5% first year and ~1-2% each year later. I recommend:
  • +50-100 mile EV range - saving 90% of your trips and having a 'bug out' capability
  • hybrid with vehicle-to-load capability like my modification to a 2003 Prius
  • buy used, ideally 'end-of-lease' for first vehicle - it will teach valuable lessons that forum posts can not
  • use "completed" eBay sales prices to get the lowest price to shoot for
  • Pick two: GOOD, FAST, CHEAP -- I recommend GOOD and CHEAP so patient snipping for a good deal makes sense
My recommended practice is to use eBay to search for your first, plug-in hybrid. Again, end-of-lease is ideal because the previous owner wants to avoid end-of-lease charges but single owner can work. Join forums dedicated to candidate vehicles as you'll learn what works and doesn't and many have 'sale' subforms that might lead to a good buy. Candidates:
  • 2015-current BMW i3-REx - avoid first year 2014 (I own one) as there were some infantile problems. Sad to say, I've not tried to enable the REx as a source for vehicle-to-load. It may yet be possible using some diagnostic tricks.
  • Chevy Volt
  • Honda Clarity
  • Hyundai Ioniq - low EV range
  • Kia Niro - low EV range
I share your goals and want to suggest a path to low cost, minimum risk, and acceptable performance. In 5-10 years, you'll have options barely dreamed today and the experience to 'choose wisely.'

Bob Wilson
Click to expand...
Thank you. I have never leased before, but in this situation I may well do that or purchase as suggested an end of lease car.
Cost is a major roadblock, but also range. I live at 4500 feet, and must drive 35 miles to the nearest real city.I've been looking at the discounts on Bolts though, and I'm puzzled. Those discounts are enormous, and there are a slew of Bolts sitting on dealer lots.
Consumer Reports actually prefers the Bolt to Tesla, so I'm wondering what's up with all the excess Bolts ? I am sure you are right,
in 5 to 10 years the choices will expand, but in the meantime I must do something - my Ranger is simply too filthy. The Bolt seems
an option right now. Thank you all for your input. It is greatly appreciated.
 
kavade said:
Thank you. I have never leased before, but in this situation I may well do that or purchase as suggested an end of lease car.
Cost is a major roadblock, but also range. I live at 4500 feet, and must drive 35 miles to the nearest real city.I've been looking at the discounts on Bolts though, and I'm puzzled. Those discounts are enormous, and there are a slew of Bolts sitting on dealer lots.
Consumer Reports actually prefers the Bolt to Tesla, so I'm wondering what's up with all the excess Bolts ? I am sure you are right,
in 5 to 10 years the choices will expand, but in the meantime I must do something - my Ranger is simply too filthy. The Bolt seems
an option right now. Thank you all for your input. It is greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

One of the reasons the Bolts have discounts is that later this year two up dated versions of the Bolt will be released and people are waiting for the new models. Also there are battery recalls on some Bolts and Konas due to a small number of battery fires. I have a Kona and i am not overly concerned about the recalls as both company's are be responsive though possibly a little slow.
 
Nikki Gordon-Bloomfield presents the YouTube channel "Transport Evolved" and is enthused about her Bolt. She has several YouTubes detailing both her good and bad experiences. An end-of-lease Bolt would be a good choice especially if it has residual warranty.

I would also ask about a used Volt, the plug-in that preceded the Bolt.

Bob Wilson
 
Checking eBay Auto, I found multiple 2017 Bolts from $14,595 to $17,995. The new range was listed at 180 miles so I would expect ~150 miles on a full charge. Find ones closest to your ZIP code and use PlugShare to map CCS-1 routes to your home. You want segments to be in the 100-120 mile range. Verify the car has a working CCS-1 charger.

Take a camping backpack and drive the car home. Leave by Friday noon so if it doesn't work, you can drive it back. You will learn valuable lessons about EV ownership and long distance driving. <GRINS>

Personally, I think a 2015 or later BMW i3-REx is a better value as the gas engine means you are independent of fast DC chargers. Get a 'coding kit' and drive the car home. Join a BMW User Forum for details. A BMW i3-REx can also teach valuable EV lessons with the 'parachute' of the range extender engine.

Bob Wilson
 
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