EVs Vs ICE Vehicles
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R P
Well-Known Member
We can expect 200,000 miles from an ICE vehicle. I expect there are very few Model S, or any other BEV with 200k miles. Battery life is a relevant concern.
Who is this 'we' of who you speak?
ICE vehicles frequently require major work before they hit 200k miles, and many engines die before 200k miles. TO imply that they all last that long, or are even designed to last that long is disingenuous
Search this site for numerous articles on high mileage Teslas.
ICE vehicles frequently require major work before they hit 200k miles, and many engines die before 200k miles. TO imply that they all last that long, or are even designed to last that long is disingenuous
Search this site for numerous articles on high mileage Teslas.
Bruce M.
Well-Known Member
Yes, chances are very good that your ICE car will need major engine or transmission work well before 200K miles. I have definitely experienced this in the past.
SouthernDude
Active Member
So if it went below 70% after 8 years and 100k miles would it still be under warranty? I doubt it's indefinite
SouthernDude
Active Member
I'm sorry, but how does this invalidate any concerns over the cost to replace batteries if the batteries are out of warranty? It doesn't really. To be honest, I have yet to see anyone reference some comparison between an EV and 10 or 15 year cost of ownership. Who cares about 5 years of ownership when the average is about 11 years now? I don't want to buy a car every 5 years. I've owned the car I have now for 12 years (almost half my life. lol).
First sentence:
"Tesla could be forced to pay out
...
In Norway, 30 owners banded together to sue Tesla and they have now won, with the judge awarding each owner $16,000 in compensation. Tesla decided not to respond to the lawsuit
...
IMHO, offer a buy-back and let the owners choose. Tesla can resell those cars easily via their online, used car web site.
Bob Wilson
If battery fears keep someone out of the EV market, good. Tesla sells every EV they make. There are lay reports the other EV manufacturers have sold out their initial production runs. Such sales in the face of often hostile dealers and sales staff suggests there is a production, not a demand problem. However, there have been systemic problems with Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt.
Nissan remains notorious for inadequate temperature management that led a lot of early failures in Arizona. Chevy has done at least one recall over battery fires and this past week, there were two more. As for Tesla, they sell every EV they make while continuing to improve battery life and reliability via Over The Air updates. Regardless:
Let this one image chase battery critics away from the latest Tesla Model S Plaid. Or as we say on Halloween, "BOOOO!!!"
Some people should self-select away from EVs. No problem, go away and complain about a problem you don't have.
Bob Wilson
Nissan remains notorious for inadequate temperature management that led a lot of early failures in Arizona. Chevy has done at least one recall over battery fires and this past week, there were two more. As for Tesla, they sell every EV they make while continuing to improve battery life and reliability via Over The Air updates. Regardless:
Let this one image chase battery critics away from the latest Tesla Model S Plaid. Or as we say on Halloween, "BOOOO!!!"
Some people should self-select away from EVs. No problem, go away and complain about a problem you don't have.
Bob Wilson
Then that is only because you have failed to look.
They are everywhere.
The average ownership is not 11 years, it is about 6. You are, as usual, confused. The average vehicle age is 12 years, not ownership.
If you wish to troll people, get facts, it at least makes it interesting.
R P
Well-Known Member
The biggest issue with EVs right now is the initial higher cost, followed by faster depreciation than ICE cars. And if your battery does require replacement after 10 years, it probably will be worthless. ICE cars may need major repairs at that time, but they are generally much less due to the availability of cheaper parts, incl major components (like engines) available from junk yards.
Theoretically, EVs should last longer due to less and simpler drive train components. And we actually don't know how long these batteries will last (aside from initial manufacturer defects). I suspect they will be around longer than most today are expecting. Even if the battery capacity is down to 60%, that is still not bad for a newer EV that originally had 250+ miles EPA range. Most people will have a 2nd car anyway, so having one available for shorter around town trips can still be very useful. Plus some will end up as hand me downs to kids or grand kids, and will serve well as a first car.
Theoretically, EVs should last longer due to less and simpler drive train components. And we actually don't know how long these batteries will last (aside from initial manufacturer defects). I suspect they will be around longer than most today are expecting. Even if the battery capacity is down to 60%, that is still not bad for a newer EV that originally had 250+ miles EPA range. Most people will have a 2nd car anyway, so having one available for shorter around town trips can still be very useful. Plus some will end up as hand me downs to kids or grand kids, and will serve well as a first car.
SouthernDude
Active Member
Everywhere where? I only see people reporting ones that compare new to 5 years of ownership. Every now and then you see articles about how expensive it is to replace EV batteries in general. This cost may offset the savings of lower scheduled maintenance costs. It's something even I'm unclear about and I actually care to look it up - unlike most people who only look at EVs at a glance. The cost should go down over time as batteries get cheaper, but I don't think it's honest to tell people not to worry about it entirely.
>12 is the average age, not average years of ownership. reeeeeeeeeeee
uh. ok. How does this change anything really? most cars bought in the US are used anyways. And it's that way for a reason. Average age of 12 implies that there is a non-negligible portion of cars that are older than 12 in operation. How does the cost of a battery replacement compare with ICE in this case? This is not an unreasonable question nor is it a 'troll'.
Most people don't scour the internet to figure any of this out. They just read the articles that come up in the first link and the articles almost always present studies that compare maintenance costs from 0 to 5 years of car age. This whole thread is about barriers to EV adoption.
'We' is family, neighbors, wife, girlfriends, pretty much anyone who is conservative with their money and takes care of their cars. I didn't imply or say they all last that long. Sure there are failures. I know of many Toyota's, Subarus, Honda's, even Chevy Vans that have easily topped 200k.
I own two EVs:
- Tesla 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3 - measured about 3 weeks ago, about 3.33% range degradation. This is after 2 years, 3 months, and 50,211 miles.
- BMW 2014 i3-REx - measured within 2 months, 18.3 kWh vs original 18.6 kWh usable. This after 5 years, 2 months, 54,520 miles.
What do you have?
Bob Wilson
R P
Well-Known Member
You're not helping, Bob. What SouthernDude is saying and asking about is what probably most non-EV owners are thinking right now. Maybe instead of being insulting and disrespectful to him, try addressing his concerns. Using yourself as an example of low cost of ownership is probably not the best tact. As I understand it you have never owned an EV for a long time, and as we know depreciation is highest after the first few years of ownership. SouthernDude has stated that he doesn't want to buy a new car every 5 years, and has owned his current car for 12 years. So I am quite sure his cost of ownership with his ICE cars is a fraction of yours with all the new EVs you have owned.
But if you reread my post just above, it explains probably the biggest obstacle and concerns that people have today about buying an EV. It is in indeed about cost of ownership, starting with the high initial cost followed by the high rate of depreciation. Those facts can't be ignored.
I'm truth telling. If facts and data don't work, I really don't care. I'm not a propagandists. Let the 'honorable competition' lie and mislead.
As for others, they have a facts and data problem. Let them state their assertions. I only have my finger prints on my vehicles ... you?
Bob Wilson
R P
Well-Known Member
You really don't understand, do you? It is not about truth telling or who's truth to believe. It is about true finding and helping people understand. Most people do not understand EVs, and there are a lot of misconceptions about them. But we shouldn't attack them because of what they believe, esp if they are reaching out to gain further knowledge. Questioning other's beliefs is one way of doing that. We should listen and try to understand where they are coming from.
John Lumsden
Active Member
O wad some Pow'r the giftie gie us
To see oursels as ithers see us!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_a_Louse