EV mode is more expensive for me

[JulianClarity]

Yes that was the worst, last one was 62 miles. I never use EV on the highway, probably also helps that I live in a relatively small town with light traffic at least until the summer beach traffic season starts. Lots of 2 mile trips to school, after school lessons, food stores etc.

I live in the bay area, and I drive very very efficiently. I use the minimum amount of regen and even less brakes, I really can't imagine that someone lives in a weather below 0F can get 60miles per charge, how is that possible? Are you driving at 30mph most of the times?
Every day I drive out, I see around 48 miles range, then I carefully move my car out of my community in about a half mile, it drops to somewhere around 46.x.

 

[David Towle]

I live in the bay area, and I drive very very efficiently. I use the minimum amount of regen and even less brakes, I really can't imagine that someone lives in a weather below 0F can get 60miles per charge, how is that possible? Are you driving at 30mph most of the times?
Every day I drive out, I see around 48 miles range, then I carefully move my car out of my community in about a half mile, it drops to somewhere around 46.x.

Well the average speed is probably 30, tops at 45. It almost never hits 0F here, coldest this year was I think about 7F. I never use heat in EV so that's same as you I assume (SF Bay right?) I drive in Sport most of the time to get the maximum regen, but much of the time in the winter it won't give more than 3 chevrons due to battery limitations. My car is kept in a garage that probably helps, it'll often get to 4 chevrons initially then down to 3 after you drive around awhile. Maybe traffic is lighter here too.

 

[MrFixit]

The car is about 45 gas mpg for me, so if the gas is below $3.1 per gallon

JulianClarity:

I agree with Timothy... I believe the "Break Even" point with an electric cost of $0.19 per kWh is more like $2.65 per gallon. You are definitely right in principle, but at $0.19 per kWh, you would need to do better than $2.65 per gallon before gas is more economical. We have been running close to $2.65, but are fortunate to have electric cost of $0.12 per kWh so electric remains a good bit better.

 

[jwillieb]

JulianClarity:

I agree with Timothy... I believe the "Break Even" point with an electric cost of $0.19 per kWh is more like $2.65 per gallon. You are definitely right in principle, but at $0.19 per kWh, you would need to do better than $2.65 per gallon before gas is more economical. We have been running close to $2.65, but are fortunate to have electric cost of $0.12 per kWh so electric remains a good bit better.

To compare electric costs to gasoline costs: assuming 42MPG on gas, 110 MPGe (1 gallon of gas = 33.7kw thus Clarity rated at 3.26MPKWH) on electric. 1. Calculate the cost per mile on gas (($/gal)/(mpg)). 2. Calculate the cost per mile on electric (($/kwh)/(miles/kwh)). 3. Where the cost per mile (on gas and electric) are equal: compare the cost per gallon to cost per kwh. For example: if electric rates are $0.065/kwh the cost per mile ($0.02) would be the same as if gasoline was $0.84/gallon.

Attached below:

A. Plot, the blue line represents where the costs per mile are equal for gas and electric costs (see assumptions above).

B. Table of the plot (A). On each row the costs are equal per mile.

C. Table of cost per hour of charging vs gasoline costs. Assumes 6.6kw. This is just ($/kwh) times 6.6kw to get $/hr. This calculation likely much less accurate than A or B above; highly dependent on SOC, battery temps, etc. Quick thumb rule: if gasoline per gallon costs less than double the price per hour of charging: gasoline is cheaper per mile. Example: if a charging station costs $1.80/hour, gasoline is cheaper per mile if it costs less than $3.60/gallon.

Again, this is based on EPA 42MPG, 110MPGe, 6.6kw charger. The per mile costs could be adjusted with real world data. If the EPA MPGe is a measurement of KWH from outlet, then the blue line is probably close. However, if the EPA MPGe rating is measured KWH at the battery then the blue line on plot A likely needs to move up about 5-10% due to losses betwixt electric meter and battery.

 

[ClarityBill]

I live in upstate New York, and use the heater a lot (set at 74F). My EV range has been 28-32 though the winter (most of the time below 20F). I drive much of the time at 73 mph. Averaging over 600 miles per week. I guess the heater and my speed have dramatically affected EV range: I'm not sure which is worse. EV range jumped to 41 when temperature got over 50F. HV mpg is around 45, so it seems speed does not kill that, but I work to keep it in gear mode.

 

[JulianClarity]

Well the average speed is probably 30, tops at 45. It almost never hits 0F here, coldest this year was I think about 7F. I never use heat in EV so that's same as you I assume (SF Bay right?) I drive in Sport most of the time to get the maximum regen, but much of the time in the winter it won't give more than 3 chevrons due to battery limitations. My car is kept in a garage that probably helps, it'll often get to 4 chevrons initially then down to 3 after you drive around awhile. Maybe traffic is lighter here too.

I see 52 miles today when I drove off, My ECO score was below one bar when I started, now I get two full bars every time, way to go. I might consume more power than you, because I listen to audio books and have a little AC on my way.
When I had my GLK, I always got 100 points on the highway and most of the times over 95 local.

 

[Sloanhoo]

I have done corporate financial analysis since Jesus was a baby. I would like to opine to you all that payback period is completely discredited as a financial analysis method (except by people who like it because the math is easy.) What it ignores is that your investment is a sunk cost. There is no relevance (defined as things you can change) once you make the investment. You can console yourself over the bite of the investment to current cashflow by saying you will have “paid yourself back in x time period” but why do that?

You invested in a PHEV for several other reasons besides return on investment in pure operating cost, I would guess. And it does in total, but there will be times in fluctuating markets when electric or gas mode will appear more financially advantageous. To maximize your advantage, you would have to do the calculations of exact optimal percentages of EV/ICE every time prices change and be sure you drove to that optimal mix every minute for this to make sense. In my humble opinion, you would only do this if you had too much time on your hands, but be my guest. Personally, I think gas prices will rise over the long term, and if they do, that would merely add to my genius of buying the glorious Miss Clara T. Till then, I am just enjoying the many benefits of owning a PHEV that isn’t a Chevy or Prius.

 

[jdonalds]

I have done corporate financial analysis since Jesus was a baby. I would like to opine to you all that payback period is completely discredited as a financial analysis method (except by people who like it because the math is easy.) What it ignores is that your investment is a sunk cost. There is no relevance (defined as things you can change) once you make the investment. You can console yourself over the bite of the investment to current cashflow by saying you will have “paid yourself back in x time period” but why do that?

You invested in a PHEV for several other reasons besides return on investment in pure operating cost, I would guess. And it does in total, but there will be times in fluctuating markets when electric or gas mode will appear more financially advantageous. To maximize your advantage, you would have to do the calculations of exact optimal percentages of EV/ICE every time prices change and be sure you drove to that optimal mix every minute for this to make sense. In my humble opinion, you would only do this if you had too much time on your hands, but be my guest. Personally, I think gas prices will rise over the long term, and if they do, that would merely add to my genius of buying the glorious Miss Clara T. Till then, I am just enjoying the many benefits of owning a PHEV that isn’t a Chevy or Prius.

Absolutely. There are other cars that I could have purchased which would have had a much lower Total Cost of Ownership. I bought the Clarity because it was a step forward for me, from a non-plugin Prius to truly driving in electric mode. I do like to drive in EV with our solar roof supplying the power, but I never expected to break even.

 

[dnb]

Yeah I noticed the same.. expensive CA electricity rates and high gas prices so now just driving in sport mode since 90% of my driving is highway speeds.

 

[4sallypat]

Yeah, look at So Cal gasoline prices now at $4.00 / gal !!!

 

[su_A_ve]

With electricity at 17c and gas in the $2.50 it's still very close. I do have free charging at work so M-F it's EV only for the most part. Comes the weekend however, and I do top it off Friday night. I do put a good 100+ miles in a weekend doing errands and what not, so depending on where I'll be going I'll start in EV and switch to HV if going a little long distance at 45+ mph. If during the day I go down to about 30% EV, I'll plug it in for the next day, unless it's Sunday night, where I'll schedule just enough to get me to work.

Good thing is temps are finally warming up a bit so I turned the climate control off and range shot up from the low 30s to at least mid 40s.

 

[Mowcowbell]

I have no way to track my electricity usage through my NEMA 14-50 outlet in the garage. Looking at my historical electric bills won't help much either, as weather causes a bigger impact in my electricity usage depending on how hot the weather will get this summer. Oklahoma normally sees a good 30-90 days of weather over 90F each summer. Sometimes we see 30-45 days of +100F weather.

A/C usage is the biggest chunk of my electric bill. I doubt a couple of hours charging my Clarity each night will make a significant difference.

 

[Sloanhoo]

Ok, so what do we learn from this? So much depends on where you get your gas and electric, whether your driving is mostly highway or in-town and how you draw the boundaries around what total cost of ownership includes. I live in the Pacific NW, where hydro power has been too cheap for ages and gas is relatively expensive. I forecast that the cost of both will rise in the future, so I like the flexibility I get in a PHEV, and Miss Clara T is a joy to drive/ride in.

By the way, in my area, I think investment in a pure EV is riskier than a PHEV for the following reason: Hydro power cost is heavily regulated (eg, artificially cheap) and the lead time to more capacity is long, but demand is growing at an unsustainable rate. Thus electric rates have more pressure to rise faster and higher than gasoline prices, at least until there is political will to recognize the full cost of fossil fuels in the price of gasoline. I would love to have solar panels but I live in Portland.......

 

[marshall]

Ok, so what do we learn from this? So much depends on where you get your gas and electric, whether your driving is mostly highway or in-town and how you draw the boundaries around what total cost of ownership includes. I live in the Pacific NW, where hydro power has been too cheap for ages and gas is relatively expensive. I forecast that the cost of both will rise in the future, so I like the flexibility I get in a PHEV, and Miss Clara T is a joy to drive/ride in.

By the way, in my area, I think investment in a pure EV is riskier than a PHEV for the following reason: Hydro power cost is heavily regulated (eg, artificially cheap) and the lead time to more capacity is long, but demand is growing at an unsustainable rate. Thus electric rates have more pressure to rise faster and higher than gasoline prices, at least until there is political will to recognize the full cost of fossil fuels in the price of gasoline. I would love to have solar panels but I live in Portland.......

Ok, so what do we learn from this? So much depends on where you get your gas and electric, whether your driving is mostly highway or in-town and how you draw the boundaries around what total cost of ownership includes. I live in the Pacific NW, where hydro power has been too cheap for ages and gas is relatively expensive. I forecast that the cost of both will rise in the future, so I like the flexibility I get in a PHEV, and Miss Clara T is a joy to drive/ride in.

By the way, in my area, I think investment in a pure EV is riskier than a PHEV for the following reason: Hydro power cost is heavily regulated (eg, artificially cheap) and the lead time to more capacity is long, but demand is growing at an unsustainable rate. Thus electric rates have more pressure to rise faster and higher than gasoline prices, at least until there is political will to recognize the full cost of fossil fuels in the price of gasoline. I would love to have solar panels but I live in Portland.......

I don't see the point in buy or leasing a PHEV unless you are driving using only the traction battery 80% or more of the time. So from my point of view there isn't much difference in electricity usage.

As far as the electrical production in Washington state. Our state does require a biennial energy report which you can read. The wild card is climate change and how it will effect participation and the snow pack.

http://www.commerce.wa.gov/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Commerce-Biennial-Energy-Report-2017.pdf

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I don't see the point in buy or leasing a PHEV unless you are driving using only the traction battery 80% or more of the time.

Not sure of the reasoning here, or where the 80% comes from.

Why would there’s be no “point in buying or leasing a PHEV” if, let’s say, 50% of one’s driving involved the ICE? That’s probably pretty close to our use case, and I still see a lot of “point” to our Clarity.

 

[Ken7]

Totally agree - and this is why the Clarity is perfect for me. I can charge at work for free and my round trip commute is less then most days battery capacity, or I’m using gas for a few miles in the dead of winter. Over the weekends I can decide what to do and use EV around town or gas on the highway. I don’t think I would switch to a full EV until I can charge it up quickly. I thought a lot about this over the winter. If EV range is in the 200s then any trip is going to have range anxiety which I never have with the Clarity. I don’t want to take an hour break every 3 hours to fill up my car.

A coworker of mine has a Tesla and we got stuck in a traffic jam on a two lane highway that he couldn’t get off of. He ran out of juice and the Tesla service couldn’t get to him for hours because of the traffic. Yes - that might be rare but it’s not something I would want to deal with.

Of course that was incredibly poor planning on your friend's part. The same type of planning (or lack thereof) could easily have had someone running out of gas in an ICE-only car or come to a halt with even a car like the Clarity...out of electric and then out of gas.

With any car I've owned I always assume the worst, horrendous traffic jams, etc. You plan for it and don't start a trip unless you are properly prepared.

 

[sniwallof]

Whatever the reason, I respect folks being curious about Clarity operation and efficiency, even it it's down in the weeds. Minutia to some, is curiosity and discovery to others.

 

[Mowcowbell]

Of course that was incredibly poor planning on your friend's part. The same type of planning (or lack thereof) could easily have had someone running out of gas in an ICE-only car or come to a halt with even a car like the Clarity...out of electric and then out of gas.

With any car I've owned I always assume the worst, horrendous traffic jams, etc. You plan for it and don't start a trip unless you are properly prepared.

I agree with you on that reply... how is running out of electricity any different than a ICE vehicle running out of gasoline? Other than someone can bring you a gallon of gasoline and get you back on the road. Either way you're still waiting on roadside assistance.

 

[RickSE]

I agree with you on that reply... how is running out of electricity any different than a ICE vehicle running out of gasoline? Other than someone can bring you a gallon of gasoline and get you back on the road. Either way you're still waiting on roadside assistance.

In his case it was quite different. He didn’t run totally out of juice. He had a few miles left and was able to make it to a gas station at the highway rest stop.

 

[bfd]

Yeah, look at So Cal gasoline prices now at $4.00 / gal !!!

Gas is always pricy down here by the border, but it's nowhere near $4/gal. Just filled up (If one can call 6 gallons a fill-up) today for $3.40/gal (reg) at the Arco down the street. Indies and Costco are even lower. Whoever's charging $4 gallon is just plain gouging.