That could create a new problem with people waiting around until it charges to 100% since it's billed per energy delivered.
Electrify America price gouging for Niro EV CCS charging
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interestedinEV
Well-Known Member
Not a lawyer and do not have any shares/interest in VW. I am curious as to what your legal arguments for filing a class action suit. As far as I know, the dieselgate scandal agreement only mandated how much they should invest on chargers, not how they will price their services. So that is not going to an avenue that will be productive. They can claim they are pricing is based on their investment and business policies and customers can go elsewhere if they do not like it. They will claim that Blink and others are available, and hence they are not a regulated entity like the power company. Of course that will change if you can prove deceptive sales practices, but for that you need a lot evidence that you have alluded to.
Why is it all or nothing? You can have an hybrid charging scheme, where up to 80 or 90%, it is charged at one rate, beyond 80 or 90% at a higher rate and once fully charged, you pay an idling fee to force you to leave. Your electric bills are like that, and with billing technology today, that should not be difficult to program.
One suggestion I have heard is to allow the user to select max charging rate. However, this might cause a problem in the future with newer cars that accept higher rates, where the owner is willing to wait and get a lower rate, thus tying up the station for longer than necessary. But it seems like it might be a simple change for EA to make.
Must not have been clear enough about what I meant. What I was suggesting is that people be charged for the tier they're in for the time they're in that tier. So say you start at tier 2 and are there for 8 minutes then your charge rate drops down to tier 1 speeds, then you would be charged at Tier 1 rates for that time. This would be a much fairer way to charge ($) people as it would more represent the service they received instead of a "theoretical" max power a vehicle can accept.
David T in Silicon Valley
Active Member
It is pretty silly that Electrify American can't measure the actual current flow and bill accordingly. Obviously they would have to change hardware. What is mind boggling is that wit ha tiered pricing structure they did not create a charger design that costs a few $ more to have this feature. They obviously have some firmware since they do the handshake signaling . It pro badly would not be too hard to create a pass through adaptor that sends an e-Golf handshake signal. With their design, it is a just a matter of time before such devices start showing up.
ericy
Well-Known Member
It isn't that they can't. It is that they don't want to. At one time there were regulatory issues that prevented them from charging by the kWh, but those have mostly been fixed by now. At least in some states.
In top of this, hey decided to charge a lot more for cars that take a faster charge to offset the costs of the really high speed chargers. Niro and Kona are anong the first to get caught.
They keep saying that EA and Hyundai are working on a solution, but nothing has been announced yet
In top of this, hey decided to charge a lot more for cars that take a faster charge to offset the costs of the really high speed chargers. Niro and Kona are anong the first to get caught.
They keep saying that EA and Hyundai are working on a solution, but nothing has been announced yet
interestedinEV
Well-Known Member
Yes, most states have removed that restriction (see below). EA can change it, but there is a cost possibly associated with it, however small or low it is there. California has mandated only chargers after installed after 2022 or so need to charge by KWh. The reason is that otherwise, it will be considered an unfunded mandate, by giving them so much time, they have diluted the argument. This is like a code change for buildings, only future chargers have to comply. However it will be difficult for EA if one charger charges by KWH and another charger a mile away does not. EA, if they are devious enough, can avoid building any new chargers in California after 2022 so that they can continue as they have been having, at least for another 1-3 years.
The reason why EA does not want to do it is simple, they make more money this way and why should they invest in something that will bring them lower revenue.
Let us be honest here. Hyundai and others who depend on EA have very little leverage. EA is holding the cards. If there many cars on the road and there was an alternate network that could be used, then Hyundai could say "we will change our preferred network".
EA will change only if one or more of these happen
- An immense amount of regulatory and public outcry that shams EA to changing or manufacturers putting pressure
- Laws or regulatory changes (again California has done this but there is long phase in period, so it is not immediate)
- Competing networks which charge by the KWH and people start migrating to that network.
- All chargers or all new chargers should have KWh billing or
- Companies can charge either way
Some states allow companies to charge either way, they do not mandate it.
David T in Silicon Valley
Active Member
I have not yet taken a long trip so consequently have not needed a fast charger. Seems there are a few different fast charging networks with sufficient presence that I won't have to rely on electrify America. I like the idea of being able to dial in a charging rate. If a company is concerned about pricing, they can can charge both a duration and energy fee. After all, if someone is charged up and just has not bothered to move their car yet, they should have to pay something.
That variance in charging rate has to do with battery temperature (same with all EVs). On the Niro, battery needs to be at 78 degrees C or higher before it will allow the maximum charging rate up to about 53% SOC. This is why it's idiotic to charge by the minute. Someone pulling in with an audi e-tron or porsche taycan will pay a fraction of the price compared someone in a Niro or Kona for the same kWh delivered.
ITown
Active Member
Have you ever encountered an EA charging location where every station was occupied and you had to wait for a turn?
The only time I've ever found 100% of the fast charging locations anywhere (EVGo, EA, or anywhere else) to be occupied prior to my arrival was when I wanted to plug in at a 25 kW DC fast charger that doesn't accept payment. Where there was only 1 plug.
Right now, the number of EA-compatible vehicles is very limited. Niro, Bolt, Kona, i3, e-golf, and that's about it. Of those, only the first 3 are realistically going to be used on road trips, and of those three, only the Bolt is selling in non-trivial volumes currently.
Leaf, Soul (pre-2020), iMiEV are all CHAdeMO vehicles, which EA barely supports. And Teslas lack the necessary plug to work with CCS.
Nope, I don't have an EA station near me. My comment was just saying it may create a problem in the future if it's billed per energy delivered. We know that the charging rate decreases a lot the closer it gets to full so people might stay charged longer if they don't have to worry about being billed by the minute. It may not inconvenience you now, but it might in the future if they change it to per energy delivered.
Robert Lewis
Member
I've seen hybrid models on some L2 chargers in the past. Billed by energy delivered while charging, then by the minute after charging finishes and car remains plugged in. I remember a plan (can't remember the vendor) where it was x cents per Kwh while charging, then 1st 10 minutes free after charging complete, then something like 50 cents per minute thereafter if car isn't unplugged. That would help disincentive people from sitting there after charge is complete, but be fair for the time actually charging.
ITown
Active Member
I agree - if the chargers start getting clogged, they will definitely want to set pricing to discourage that. Until then, I feel like it's just punitive to Kia/Hyundai car buyers. I don't see a reason why they can't change the pricing scheme to fit that paradigm when it becomes a problem, rather than pre-emptively setting the pricing scheme in that way today.
ericy
Well-Known Member
e-Tron. The CEO of EA drives one.
ITown
Active Member
Fair enough, but my understanding is sales for that vehicle are also near non-existent in America.
I quick look on the map in the Denver area showed every EA station supporting CHAdeMO. Is this different in your area?
David T in Silicon Valley
Active Member
78 C is pretty dang hot. Did you mean 78 Fahrenheit?
Yes, they meant Fahrenheit.
We have taken two longer trips and both times when we needed to charge EA was the only option available. Others were fully occupied. I don’t think it’s a coincidence - I wasn’t happy with the cost but didn’t have experience with ChargePoint or others to compare. With this thread I think that pretty much explains why EA chargers were wide wide open for use.
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Yes, unfortunately you can only edit posts here for a short amount of time after posting.
Incidentally, I had e-trons charging next to my Niro at both an evgo and EA station on my last road trip. So they are not as uncommon as one may think - one was in California, the other in Nevada. Also saw jaguar i-pace at some stations. I do agree that the volume of cars at EA stations is currently very low. Usually only saw 1 other car besides mine at the chargers and some locations had up to 9 CCS stalls. No reason to charge by the minute at this point.