Electricity prices in Texas surge.

[FloridaSun]

My average electric bill here in Central Florida is about $150 - $160.. Since my new AC system, my summer bills are only about $170 and my winter bills are usually $120 to $140.(before the new AC, summer bills were as high as $300). January was unusually cold with 15 days of heater use (usually, I use the heater 0 - 3 times in January), so my January bill was $170.. I'm only cooling/heating 1900 sq/ft.. My house is bigger and has 2 Central AC units but I don't run the 2nd one as it cools the indoor pool and the in-law apartment.. Unless we have guests, the in-law apartment is not used and I don't want to run the AC in the indoor pool room as it would cool down the water too.. Also, cooling the 1800 sq/ft pool room would be kind of expensive too... Luckily, the in-law apartment also has a 1 ton wall unit (12000 btu) that we can run if we have guests so we don't have to use the 2nd central AC unit as you can't choose to just cool the in-law apartment with it.. It will cool both, the in-law apartment and the pool room and that would be a lot of extra money..

 

[R P]

They are not grid tied. They are in remote locations as far as the grid is concerned. If you read the plug share comments by regular users, when the battery is low the system shuts off until the battery recharges.

OK, again makes sense with no grid tie.

 

[R P]

My average electric bill here in Central Florida is about $150 - $160.. Since my new AC system, my summer bills are only about $170 and my winter bills are usually $120 to $140.(before the new AC, summer bills were as high as $300). January was unusually cold with 15 days of heater use (usually, I use the heater 0 - 3 times in January), so my January bill was $170.. I'm only cooling/heating 1900 sq/ft.. My house is bigger and has 2 Central AC units but I don't run the 2nd one as it cools the indoor pool and the in-law apartment.. Unless we have guests, the in-law apartment is not used and I don't want to run the AC in the indoor pool room as it would cool down the water too.. Also, cooling the 1800 sq/ft pool room would be kind of expensive too... Luckily, the in-law apartment also has a 1 ton wall unit (12000 btu) that we can run if we have guests so we don't have to use the 2nd central AC unit as you can't choose to just cool the in-law apartment with it.. It will cool both, the in-law apartment and the pool room and that would be a lot of extra money..

In a previous house, I had a unique DIY A/C system. We had a solarium on a south side deck, where I also had a hydroponic garden (and no, it wasn't pot). Anyway, it would get very hot there in the summer, and electric A/C would have cost a fortune. I already had a large venting fan, to try and cool it, but that was not enough. So I got an old car rad from a junk yard, and installed it on the outside of the fan where the outside air was being sucked in.

I jigged the rad with to run outside tap water through it. So when it was hot outside, I ran water through the rad, and the outlet went to a lawn sprinkler where I also used it to water the grass. Worked great. Kept the whole house cool, and kept my lawn green. And our house water was not on a meter, so didn't matter how much we used. Wouldn't get away with that now, though, as the lawn watering nannies will report you, even though there is no shortage of water.

 

[bwilson4web]

That's from 2019, and just plans. So, did they do it, and where are they?

Mr. Google found the press release and I have seen battery storage units at newer, larger, Tesla SuperChargers. As for EA, I don't really follow their operations that closely: (1) Tesla is my primary EV, and; (2) BMW i3-REx is limited to 50 kW charge rate.

Bob Wilson

 

[FloridaSun]

In a previous house, I had a unique DIY A/C system. We had a solarium on a south side deck, where I also had a hydroponic garden (and no, it wasn't pot). Anyway, it would get very hot there in the summer, and electric A/C would have cost a fortune. I already had a large venting fan, to try and cool it, but that was not enough. So I got an old car rad from a junk yard, and installed it on the outside of the fan where the outside air was being sucked in.

I jigged the rad with to run outside tap water through it. So when it was hot outside, I ran water through the rad, and the outlet went to a lawn sprinkler where I also used it to water the grass. Worked great. Kept the whole house cool, and kept my lawn green. And our house water was not on a meter, so didn't matter how much we used. Wouldn't get away with that now, though, as the lawn watering nannies will report you, even though there is no shortage of water.

I'm on a well too.. Water only costs me the electricity for the well pump and the salt for the water softener.

 

[Domenick]

Can you point to some locations (links) that have these?

Not sure if I have specific locations -- some are in Europe -- but a number of companies are using some energy storage at charging stations. Given how expensive demand charges can be, it makes sense (commercial installations pay a high rate if they suddenly need a lot of electricity at once).
https://insideevs.com/news/339511/e...d-chargers-with-second-life-bmw-i3-batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/461435/freewire-boost-charger-envision-aesc-batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/453005/northvolt-deployed-first-public-energy-storage/
https://insideevs.com/news/394328/phev-batteries-second-life-energy-storage/

 

[R P]

I can certainly understand using batteries for solar charging stations. But as we know batteries are still very expensive and in short supply. Today they continue to be the limiting EV production factor, both in price and availability. So until that improves significantly, I can't see the business case for also using them in grid charging stations solely for the purpose of flattening the daily rate curve.

I know we all want to see more EVs. But to make that happen successfully we also need more gross electrical energy production. As we have just seen in TX and CA in the summers, we have insufficient capacity today to meet peak demands. Having batteries at charging stations will not resolve that situation.

The move away from fossil fuels is a noble objective. But we need to be sure the void can be filled with renewables, or at least backed up by some fossil fuel usage (eg NG). Diversification is good, too, eg, using hydrogen for some applications. Otherwise it could all backfire, kill the economy, and ultimately actually slow the migration away from fossil fuels.

 

[Domenick]

... I can't see the business case for also using them in grid charging stations solely for the purpose of flattening the daily rate curve.

They can make financial sense. If you 're charging customers $0.36/kWh (for example) and want to keep that price to stay competitive, you can avoid surge charging of $0.75/kWh (for example) if you keep the power flow from the grid constant.

edit to add* So, it's not about flattening the daily rate curve, just the large instant demand charges.

 

[R P]

They can make financial sense. If you 're charging customers $0.36/kWh (for example) and want to keep that price to stay competitive, you can avoid surge charging of $0.75/kWh (for example) if you keep the power flow from the grid constant.

edit to add* So, it's not about flattening the daily rate curve, just the large instant demand charges.

Yes, but you also have to cover the additional cost (amortization) of the batteries. And you will need a lot of batteries (kWh capacity) to handle the charge demand for all the customers during that time. That alone would likely be your largest single capital cost for the charging station.

 

[Domenick]

Yes, but you also have to cover the additional cost (amortization) of the batteries. And you will need a lot of batteries (kWh capacity) to handle the charge demand for all the customers during that time. That alone would likely be your largest single capital cost for the charging station.

I guess that would all depend on the source of the batteries and how many they used. For instance, one of the links I shared above mentions using used BMW i3 packs. I don't know how many kWh a location might have per stall, so I can't estimate the profitability or lack thereof. I just know companies don't usually do things like this unless it is (or will be) profitable for them.

 

[ericy]

I guess that would all depend on the source of the batteries and how many they used. For instance, one of the links I shared above mentions using used BMW i3 packs. I don't know how many kWh a location might have per stall, so I can't estimate the profitability or lack thereof. I just know companies don't usually do things like this unless it is (or will be) profitable for them.

You don't need to use the same batteries that one uses in cars. For applications like this a LiFePO4 battery may be a better choice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

It doesn't have quite the power density of the ones used in cars that have Cobalt/Nickel, but the LiFePO4 batteries are cheaper and have no Cobalt or Nickel (both of which are expensive and supply constrained).

 

[R P]

I guess that would all depend on the source of the batteries and how many they used. For instance, one of the links I shared above mentions using used BMW i3 packs. I don't know how many kWh a location might have per stall, so I can't estimate the profitability or lack thereof. I just know companies don't usually do things like this unless it is (or will be) profitable for them.

Well, you would need an awful lot of i3 packs to be make it work. Remember, one i3 battery is only 40 kWh, unless you get the very newest one (most expensive) which I think is up to 63 kWh. That's only enough for about one or two cars to charge at the lower rate. Those batteries are not cheap.

The main reason that I have seen so far for batteries at a charging station is that they have solar and/or are off grid. But not to take advantage of variable tier grid rates. And yeah, companies do sometimes do things at a loss, as long as there is some other pay-off elsewhere, incl good will.

 

[R P]

You don't need to use the same batteries that one uses in cars. For applications like this a LiFePO4 battery may be a better choice:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate_battery

It doesn't have quite the power density of the ones used in cars that have Cobalt/Nickel, but the LiFePO4 batteries are cheaper and have no Cobalt or Nickel (both of which are expensive and supply constrained).

That's true. The cheapest are actually still the old lead acid types (6V golf cart batteries) which is what I use for our cabin solar system. If you treat them right, they are usually good for 10 years. Mine are already 5+ years, and as of last summer, no descernible loss of capacity. One of my neighbours on the other hand, had to change his after 2 years, because he overcharged them, and let them run down too low at times. He had a poor, but expensive charge controller. Hard lesson to learn...

For solar systems, weight and energy don't matter so much. But cost and longevity does.

 

[bwilson4web]

Grid or fast DC charging batteries have no weight restriction so cheaper packs, unsuitable for vehicles, can be used.

Bob Wilson

 

[turtleturtle]

What’s going to happen to all of these EV batteries when we trade them in? Why can’t those be repurposed for fixed storage. It doesn’t always have to be new cells.

 

[ericy]

What’s going to happen to all of these EV batteries when we trade them in? Why can’t those be repurposed for fixed storage. It doesn’t always have to be new cells.

That's true, and there are various hobbyists who build their own systems out of such batteries. I could point you to some youtube channels where people do this.

 

[papab]

You wouldn't even have to tear it down, an EV battery at 70% capacity could still be used.

 

[Recoil45]

Not sure if I have specific locations -- some are in Europe -- but a number of companies are using some energy storage at charging stations. Given how expensive demand charges can be, it makes sense (commercial installations pay a high rate if they suddenly need a lot of electricity at once).
https://insideevs.com/news/339511/e...d-chargers-with-second-life-bmw-i3-batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/461435/freewire-boost-charger-envision-aesc-batteries/
https://insideevs.com/news/453005/northvolt-deployed-first-public-energy-storage/
https://insideevs.com/news/394328/phev-batteries-second-life-energy-storage/

This is a viable option for peak EV charging and probably the only solution in the near future. But what does it do to charging cost? Tesla is already at .26 kWh for charge stations without batteries. Add a bunch a battery to the charge station and what does the kWh cost go up to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Domenick]

This is a viable option for peak EV charging and probably the only solution in the near future. But what does it do to charging cost? Tesla is already at .26 kWh for charge stations without batteries. Add a bunch a battery to the charge station and what does the kWh cost go up to?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

As I mentioned upthread somewhere, it could positively affect pricing if networks use it to avoid getting hit with big "demand" charges. Commercial power users like charge networks sometimes have to pay a lot more per kWh is they suddenly need a lot more power than usual.
For example, if 10 cars with low batteries all plugged in at the same, the network might need a lot more power than normal. A utility may add on a large surcharge for this. So, if they can avoid the "surge surcharge," it saves them money.