Double Trouble - both batteries dead.

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Kong

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Hi there.
We live in Alberta and got a Kona EV in the summer. We are having a bit of a steep learning curve about winter use! First a story, then question :)

So we are having a lovely winter so far with temperatures at -25c or lower at the moment. I took the Kona out for a 210km round trip (90% charged) and it seems it didn't have the juice to get me home and died 7km from home (the agony). I left it at the side of the road with 5% battery left but because of the cold (-30c), car would not move. Called a tow truck at 2pm but because of this delightful weather, it seems they are a tad busy. At 9pm, still no tow truck and not looking hopeful for the night. Bluelink was then saying battery was at 0% and then after a bit, bluelink wouldn't work, so i conjured up a rescue mission with a 10kw generator and our level 2 charger.

When we got to the car (only a few minutes from home), it was completely dead... nothing. We were able to physically get into the car but no life in the old girl. We fired up the genny and plugged her in to the level 2 charger to see if we could get any juice into her. Sat there for a bit to see what happened and doesnt seem to have done much. There was no green charging light around the bezel of the charging port, although the charger was indicating that it was charging up. I decided to give the 12v battery a jump start with a booster pack and this bought the kona to life. Success! interior lights came on, green charging light came on, bluelink started working. Unfortunately, as soon as the booster pack stopped (1 minute), the kona went dead again.

So we persevered and kept charging the dead kona for a couple more hours to see if it actually was charging, jumped the 12V battery but main battery was reading 0% so i guess mission fail. This was in -34c by the time we decided to call it a night. Everyone is safe, just a bit tired.

Now waiting for the tow truck to finally get to it and get it home.

Question:

I'm assuming the 12v battery is needed to be working in order to charge the main battery? Any advice on how to rig the kona up when it gets home? I'm thinking just have jumper leads between kona and my truck (on the 12v battery) whilst the main battery is plugged into the wall.

Any other sage advice is appreciated.
 
You may need to hook up a 12v power supply, or a replacement 12v battery. When you "jump" an ICE car, as soon as it's running, the alternator is providing ample current. With your car, you'll need to supply a constant "boost" so that the car can operate until the traction battery gets back on it's feet.

Good luck.
 
This may not help you this time, because you can't get the car into drive, I'm guessing. But next time, you might try tow-charging. Just drag the nearly dead vehicle with a tow strap, holding the left paddle on max-regen and you should be able to recharge the battery through regenerative braking. (I haven't tried it, but keeping this idea in my back pocket for emergencies)
 
What a drag. Like the other folks I agree that the 12 volt battery is the root of your troubles. Without it none of the charging functions can kick off. It's very much a snake swallowing its own tail situation. Cold weather can be a real pain.
I would suggest in the longer term that you have the 12 volt tested for health and replace it if it's in any way stressed or underperforming.
 
Well as it's a balmy -24c and the tow company can't guarantee that they can get to us today, we are attempting to have the 12v on jump cables and the genny charging the main battery.

I read that there is some concern that the sine waves are not pure on a genny (need inverter?) But hoping the Grizzly charger has some inbuilt wizardry.

So far so good so will let you know if this works
 

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You'll need to either charge your existing 12V battery for some hours first, jumper it, or use a charged one from another vehicle. The "boot up" load from the Kona on the battery can easily be 30+ amps until the traction battery kicks in to support it.

EVSE's (Grizzly?) are not going to change of the AC waveform but I'm not sure the car cares about that.
 
Kong said:
Hi there.
We live in Alberta and got a Kona EV in the summer. We are having a bit of a steep learning curve about winter use! First a story, then question :)

So we are having a lovely winter so far with temperatures at -25c or lower at the moment. I took the Kona out for a 210km round trip (90% charged) and it seems it didn't have the juice to get me home and died 7km from home (the agony). I left it at the side of the road with 5% battery left but because of the cold (-30c), car would not move. Called a tow truck at 2pm but because of this delightful weather, it seems they are a tad busy. At 9pm, still no tow truck and not looking hopeful for the night. Bluelink was then saying battery was at 0% and then after a bit, bluelink wouldn't work, so i conjured up a rescue mission with a 10kw generator and our level 2 charger.

When we got to the car (only a few minutes from home), it was completely dead... nothing. We were able to physically get into the car but no life in the old girl. We fired up the genny and plugged her in to the level 2 charger to see if we could get any juice into her. Sat there for a bit to see what happened and doesnt seem to have done much. There was no green charging light around the bezel of the charging port, although the charger was indicating that it was charging up. I decided to give the 12v battery a jump start with a booster pack and this bought the kona to life. Success! interior lights came on, green charging light came on, bluelink started working. Unfortunately, as soon as the booster pack stopped (1 minute), the kona went dead again.

So we persevered and kept charging the dead kona for a couple more hours to see if it actually was charging, jumped the 12V battery but main battery was reading 0% so i guess mission fail. This was in -34c by the time we decided to call it a night. Everyone is safe, just a bit tired.

Now waiting for the tow truck to finally get to it and get it home.

Question:

I'm assuming the 12v battery is needed to be working in order to charge the main battery? Any advice on how to rig the kona up when it gets home? I'm thinking just have jumper leads between kona and my truck (on the 12v battery) whilst the main battery is plugged into the wall.

Any other sage advice is appreciated.
Click to expand...
Kong if it were me I would take you 12V battery out of the car and let it warm up for a few hours indoors and then proceed to charge it up with an external battery charger. Its quite possible your 12V battery's voltage was so low it could have frozen the electrolyte in a cell or two. If that is the case the battery is toast. The last thing you want to do is charge a frozen battery. It might take a charge when its warmed up. If it doesn't its toast. Try to sort this sooner than later. Don't leave your traction battery in freezing and low SOC for too long.

As Kiwime mentioned, your EVSE is not going change the the square wave from your generator into sine wave. Some electronics are very sensitive to non sine waves, it possible all it will do is heat up the onboard charger more than it would otherwise. Its also possible it could be more harmful. I personally would not use your non inverter genny for longer than absolutely required.
 
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Well we managed to get the Kona home at last. The Jerry rigged charging system worked to some degree, we were charging at about 4% per hour and got it from 0 to 11% in about 3 hours. This wasn't enough. I presume the batteries were still way too cold and turtle mode is an understatement - the car was on and in drive but would not propel itself.

Thankfully we caught a break and tow truck arrived after 24hrs and got it carried home.

As soon as we got it charging in a heated garage, the batteries started liking life again and when from 11% to 30% in about 2hrs and the 12v battery seems to be ok.

So, it seems our adventure is over for now. Moral of the story for us is that when it's that cold, the battery will discharge way quicker than you think. We will mentally limit our range to 50% of available range (shown in the car) as it seems the last 20% of battery will drain in a heartbeat.

Thanks for the feedback and I hope this information is useful to others
 
Kong said:
Thanks for the feedback and I hope this information is useful to others
Click to expand...

Our issue where I live will be the opposite - how will it behave in on a long drive at +40C, not uncommon in summer across this country? Have yet to try it.
 
FWIW, we've found the Range indicated on the dash to be very accurate even at low temperatures, assuming the conditions you've driven in recently are similar to the ones you're currently driving in. (especially speed)

If you've been driving 45 mph in balmy temps, and then the next day it's -10 and you're driving 75mph, you'll definitely get some inaccuracies though. But for the most part the GOM is quite reliable.
 
If you have access to an ODB2 reader, such as EVOBD2 then you will have access to a more accurate GOM because it calculates based on the last 30km driven instead of the 50km that the Kona EV uses.
 
My 2 cents worth, sage or otherwise...
Sure, the GOM by all accounts gives a reasonable picture of available range, especially with little charge left. However, it doesn’t know the distance to your intended destination, which means you never know whether the current GOM value is enough, AND in extreme conditions it doesn’t know that the turtle may arrive early, such as at 5% for the OP. Ideally, you want feedback as you drive along, so you can make an early decision as to turning back, or detouring to a charger.

I suggest a simple solution to this, using 4 bits of info, 2 of which the car provides.
They are:
The current value of SoC, displayed on the console
Kilometres driven, as shown on the trip distance gauge
Journey length, from satnav
Minimum SoC you are comfortable with

First, before your journey, calculate about how many km you need to drive on average, for SoC consumed (km/SoC). In post #1, the OP’s intended journey was 210km, they started with 90% SoC, and 10% would be a common minimum i.e. 80% SoC available.
So an average requirement for safe arrival would be 210/80 i.e. 2.6km/1%SoC. I suggest using blocks of 10% SoC, so about 26km every 10% SoC. You must also know at what %SoC you are halfway through using up your chosen range. The Halfway point is important, and it may not be at a neat 50%.
Second, zero the trip distance gauge, and display the SoC value on screen. Time to depart..

Driving along, watch for 80% SoC to arrive. At this time your trip distance gauge should be ballpark 26km. Early days, averages become more accurate with more data..
In turn, look out for:
53km at 70% SoC
79km at 60%
105km at 50%.
In this example, the 50% SoC level is also halfway through your available SoC. Take a moment here to weigh up progress, as this is your Point of No Return. If the numbers are a good match or better, continue, checking at 40%, 30% etc. If NOT, say the trip is on 95km not 105km, that 10km under is about 4%SoC here, meaning your journey may need an extra 8% for the full distance (you have only allowed a 10% buffer to empty). In this case, I would turn around and head for a charger, or abort and head for home. NOTE I am able to do this only halfway through my journey, without range anxiety..

If the numbers are easy to remember, you could do this in your head while driving along. Else, write your % SoC level km goals on a card and tape on your sun visor so it’s easy to see.

One last thing - the OP’s experience in extreme conditions, dead in the road at 5%, would lead me to set a minimum of 15%, maybe 20% for my calculations. Better home late, but home..
Happy motoring...
 
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Here's a simpler approach - plug your destination into your navigation app, displaying miles to destination. Compare that to the GOM. As you drive, pay attention to whether the difference between range and distance to destination are staying the same or decreasing.

If I have 90 extra miles on the GOM, and half-hour later I have 80 miles on the GOM, then something needs to change. Either I need to choose a closer destination (find a charger) or (more realistically) I'm driving too fast and I just need to slow down 5mph. For me, that's all I need to know. The GOM has always showed me an achievable range. I may need to slow down to achieve that range, but it's always a range I can get if I want to. Maybe that's different at -25C/-5F, but in our winter temps (0-25F) it's always held true.
 
Hardly simpler - both methods compare a sat/nav value to a console/dash displayed value. Easy..
Your using the GOM has 2 major disadvantages (3 if you have extreme sub-zero temps, as above).
First, the GOM value is just a number in a range defined by its maximum and minimum values, and you only know those through reference to 0%SoC and 100%SoC. At any midpoint through the range you never have any idea if you can trust its accuracy. It is noticeable that varying terrain results in a delayed “catch up” adjustment, so sometimes it drops quickly, sometimes appears not to change at all for some time. The best that can be said is that, over time, the downward trend is informative.
In contrast, SoC is a percentage, a defined metric, so it’s value range is always known, and each point in the range has meaning. The manufacturer’s implementation of SoC as a percentage reflecting battery charge capacity can be trusted at all values.
The second disadvantage is that any use of the GOM for reliable travel requires considerable familiarity, a significant period of ownership across the variation of the seasons. New and prospective owners can be, and are easily misled by trusting the displayed value.

For simplicity, I’ll vote for using SoC. A bonus is that any shift to a new EV won’t require learning a new approach, SoC is universal...
 
I was at an Electrify America charging my Soul at the only CHAdeMO plug and a Kona got towed in. The dude had just got it that week and he had unfortunately run the car down enough where it stopped. Neither the owner nor tow truck driver turned off the car once it was on the flatbed and drained 12 V battery down enough that it could not power the car enough to close the commentators to allow the pack to charge. The tow truck driver had a jump pack but it wasn’t ???enough??? To get things brought to life. I had the vehicle owner (who I just met) go into the Walmart and buy jumper cables and we let the car “charge off” of my Soul EV for about 20 minutes and then with cables connected to the CCS charger and charging starting. I’ve had some reinforcement of prior lessons and knowledge.

Make sure to carry jumper cables, your own jump pack, and make sure to get off the interstate if you can and turn EVERYTHING off you can, no heat/AC And keep speeds slow and steady. Depending on your car it seems 45mph allows for good efficiency balance.
 
We experienced issues with 12 V battery twice during the last three years and 147,000 km. Once resuscitated. Once needed to be replaced.

You mentioned living in Alberta. We live in Lamont county. The cold temps take a toll on both 12 V and 64 kWh batteries. We posted some experience on another thread.

Our Kona EV is sheltered in a tent garage.

Some from the East, West, OZ, NZ, may not have experienced the really low temps in the Prairies. Neither people, nor our dogs, nor 12V & 64 kWh batteries like them.

Just for illustration the last four weeks:

Daily Data Report for December 2021
DAY Max TempDefinition Min TempDefinition Mean TempDefinition
°C °C °C
13 -10.5 -26.6 -18.6
14 -10.9 -24.1 -17.5
15 -21.9 -31.1 -26.5
16 -20.8 -33.1 -26.9
17 -21.7 -33.8 -27.7
18 -17.9 -27.4 -22.7
19 -10.8 -18 -14.4
20 -11.5 -22.9 -17.2
21 -4.7 -15 -9.9
22 -6.1 -11 -8.6
23 -9.3 -20.5 -14.9
24 -20.3 -25.6 -22.9
25 -24.6 -35.1 -29.9
26 -27 -33.6 -30.3
27 -28.4 -41.9 -35.1
28 -25.8 -44.6 -35.2
29 -26.3 -36.1 -31.2
30 -29 -39.1 -34.1
31 -28.6 -39.3 -33.9

Daily Data Report for January 2022
DAY Max TempDefinition Min TempDefinition Mean TempDefinition
°C °C °C
1 -13.4 -37.1 -25.3
2 -6.9 -23.1 -15
3 -22.3 -25.6 -23.9
4 -23.4 -33.8 -28.6
5 -28.2 -36.8 -32.5
6 -26.4 -34.5 -30.4
7 -24.6 -30.3 -27.5
8 -24.8 -33.1 -28.9
9 -17.7 -27.4 -22.6

Add extra -10C for wind chill.
 
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As for the 64 kWh battery. Very briefly. Some may not agree and it is ok.

Starting around 0C, with each -10C lower, calculate with some 10% - 15% - 20% lower range. It varies greatly depending on users' heating needs. Children, as well as passengers' feet, want to be kept warm.

At around -20C, -25C, -30C, the Kona's official 415 km range drops to some 50% >> 200 km. It could be a little more but it does not matter if it shows 211 km or 219 km.

Monitor your consumption. In summer, you may have noticed / will notice it is somewhere around 15 kWh / 100 km. In winter, with airflow heated to 27C and max fan speed, it doubles. Ours is mostly around 27 - 28 kWh / 100 km. But it can jump over 30 kWh / 100 km.

At -25C, -30C and lower the 200 km is not your useable range. If you want to be on the safe side all the time and not get into turtle mode, cut it to 60%. Yes, it is 120 km of useable range at very low temperatures.

We commute 90 km to Edmonton. Some 200 km a day. Sometimes 400 km a day. Depends on shifts. That is not important. By that, I just want to say we drive a lot, even at very cold temperatures. The consumption for the one-way 90 km commute is 40-45% at least. We have to top up before getting home in order to have sufficient buffer in case something happens on Hgwy 16. $hit happens.

One last note. Try not to tow at the very low temps if not absolutely necessary. It will kill your range. It will be 25% of the Kona's official 415 km range, which is 100 km and not much buffer left. The consumption will be around 40 kWh / 100 km ormore.

Oh, one more thing.

Take note of the serial number of the 64 kWh battery. You can find a sticker rear right. You need to go under, with good light, and take pictures with your cell phone. You may need that number one day. I did.
 
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