Comparison of batteries from Munro

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bwilson4web

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A lot of people see a pouch or modular battery and think they have to be lighter than the 2170 cells. But as the table shows, the extra structure needed to support pouch and modular cells causes the total battery weight to balloon ... poor design.

Embedded in this source:


I've posted the video under the Ford Mach-E forum but this battery table is special.

Bob Wilson
 
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bwilson4web said:
Another reviewer:


He took a vehicle specific approach from these charts:
View attachment 12668

View attachment 12669

Bob Wilson
Click to expand...

No surprise, Tesla is ahead for sure. I will add though that Hyundai is close second, and my Kona EV range is WAY above what that chart displays (258 miles . Today my range indicator is showing 529 km (328 miles) @ full charge, and from my past experiences the indicator accuracy is slightly frugal.
Here is a good indicator of accuracy recently posted by one of our members, have a look at the PDF chart:)
https://insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/kona-ev-300-mile-club.6098/page-2#post-138161
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Yes, in real world tests Hyundai tends to out perform, esp the Kona and Nero, while Tesla tends to under perform. Tesla has a better drag co-efficient, but Hyundai has a more efficient drive train. This is borne out consistently in many independent tests. The links below are an example, but there are others that show the Kona even better, and Tesla even worse.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/what-c...-car-can-go-farthest-in-the-real-world/n18162
https://insideevs.com/news/407807/eletric-car-real-world-range-tested/

And with direct experience with my son's Tesla M3, he consistently uses more actual kms than his GOM shows, while my Kona consistently uses less. So that supports the real world test numbers. The only place his car does better is at faster highway speeds (70+ mph) where his better drag profile helps. But most (80+%) of our driving is around town, so my GOM regularly shows 500+ kms (EPA is 415 kms) at full charge.
 
The whole point of Sandy Munro video is that the battery and software of Tesla is far ahead of the competition .

Hyundai/Kia is not even considered to be competition as they were ICE vehicles converted to EV not EV from ground up and the newer Tesla models does better than even these charts. The Tesla batteries are lighter with more range. Lighter vehicle equals better efficiency .

Dan
 
miatadan said:
The whole point of Sandy Munro video is that the battery and software of Tesla is far ahead of the competition .
Hyundai/Kia is not even considered to be competition as they were ICE vehicles converted to EV not EV from ground up and the newer Tesla models does better than even these charts. The Tesla batteries are lighter with more range. Lighter vehicle equals better efficiency .
Dan
Click to expand...
Get your facts straight. The Ioniq 5 is not a converted ICE to EV vehicle. Even the Kona was designed on a platform to support both, and the large battery in the Kona fits very well giving the Kona outstanding range as described in my previous post. And obviously very efficient as demonstrated by the real world range tests.

And while Sandy and Bob like to ignore Hyundai and the Ioniq 5 battery and EV technology, I would put it ahead of the current Tesla cars with its 800V system and faster charging (10-80%) in 18 minutes. That is the fastest charging of any EV that I am aware of currently.

And Bob keeps quoting EPA and that is what the chart is based on, but as we know Tesla cars tend to under perform to EPA while Hyundai cars out perform. I will always believe real world test numbers over theoretical manufacturer derived estimates.

Read what owners say on the Kona threads (300 and 350 mile clubs). I don't hear Tesla owners talking about how they exceed their EPA estimates by 25% or more, with regular driving (not hypermiling).
 
Source:
https://www.caranddriver.com/featur...-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/

. . .
The default adjustment factor reduces the window-sticker range by 30 percent. So a car that achieves 300 miles of range during the city-cycle dynamometer test ends up with a 210-mile city rating. However, the EPA allows automakers the option to run three additional drive cycles and use those results to earn a more favorable adjustment factor. Currently, only Tesla and Audi employ this strategy for their EVs, and Tesla scores the most advantageous results, with adjustments that range from 29.5 percent on the Model 3 Standard Range Plus to 24.4 percent on the Model Y Performance. If Tesla had used the standard adjustment factor of 30 percent, the Model Y Performance's window-sticker range would drop to 292 miles. But because Tesla takes advantage of the EPA's alternate methodology, the company can instead claim a 315-mile range.
. . .​

Bob Wilson
 
R P said:
And while Sandy and Bob like to ignore Hyundai and the Ioniq 5 battery and EV technology, I would put it ahead of the current Tesla cars with its 800V system and faster charging (10-80%) in 18 minutes. That is the fastest charging of any EV that I am aware of currently.
Click to expand...
No problem as that car does not exist in Alabama or even a neighboring State where I live. It is a 'unicorn.' In contrast, Saturday, July 10, I drove my 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3 to Cullman AL and put butt-in and hands-on the Ford Mach-E.

We've discussed sources before.

Bob Wilson
 
I was referring to Kona Electric not Ioniq 5 because that is what is available now. Once people have the Ioniq 5. is available then it can be compared.

Also this not good sign:

https://insideevs.com/news/512271/hyundai-ioniq5-range-worst-conditions/

https://insideevs.com/news/515464/hyundai-ioniq-5-coolant-leaks/

300 and 350 mile clubs is only one factor in choosing Hyundai Kona electric..

As far as interior , only advantage is the ventilated seat's ( rarely used in my 2019 VW Jetta ), rest of interior looks like outdated ICE interior as it is shared with other models of Kona ICE . Ioniq 5. At least is modern looking.

Dan
 
bwilson4web said:
No problem as that car does not exist in Alabama or even a neighboring State where I live. It is a 'unicorn.'
Bob Wilson
Click to expand...
Yes, where you live is not exactly a hotbed of EVs. What is your % of of new EVs sold in your state? In BC, where I live it is 10%, which is actually the highest rate per capita in North America.
https://www.coastreporter.net/bc-ne...leneck-due-to-pent-up-pandemic-demand-3938581

The Ioniq 5 is scheduled to be available for sale here in Canada in the fall, probably the same in other parts of the US as well. Meanwhile owners are already driving it in the EU. And the specs are well described. So it is certainly not a unicorn.
 
miatadan said:
The whole point of Sandy Munro video is that the battery and software of Tesla is far ahead of the competition .

Hyundai/Kia is not even considered to be competition as they were ICE vehicles converted to EV not EV from ground up and the newer Tesla models does better than even these charts. The Tesla batteries are lighter with more range. Lighter vehicle equals better efficiency .

Dan
Click to expand...

I would never deny Tesla of its EV accomplishments but it is either an amazing stroke of luck or expert engineering, maybe a bit of both, but the Hyundai Kona Electric and to a slightly lesser degree the Kia E-Niro are two of the most efficient EV’s on the road regardless of initial design as an EV only build or not. Consider the size of the battery packs which I believe is a usable 64KW vs the range you can get from these cars. R P is 100% correct when he makes his claim about the Kona’s conservative range estimate is easily bested in real world driving.

I think the Model 3 is a better all around EV than the Hyundai Kona but I don’t know if it’s a better car.
 
miatadan said:
I was referring to Kona Electric not Ioniq 5 because that is what is available now. Once people have the Ioniq 5. is available then it can be compared.

Also this not good sign:

https://insideevs.com/news/512271/hyundai-ioniq5-range-worst-conditions/

https://insideevs.com/news/515464/hyundai-ioniq-5-coolant-leaks/

Dan
Click to expand...
I have said before, many times, I will reserve judgment on the Ioniq 5 (and the ID.4) when I get to see one in person, and see more real world tests and comparisons. But on paper (specs, design, appearance, etc) right now, the Ioniq 5 looks the best to me (not that I expect everyone to share my tastes/needs/wants). Early reports and initial production issues don't mean much to me.

But you can't make broad statements about Hyundai, and ignore this car. It is real. The Ioniq 5 is really the 3rd gen BEV for Hyundai, so I would expect they have learned a few things.
 
R P said:
I will reserve judgment on the Ioniq 5 (and the ID.4) when I get to see one in person, and see more real world tests and comparisons.
Click to expand...
This is wise and why I went to Cullman yesterday to see the Ford Mach-E. One of my hard requirements is driver automation:
  • TSSP-1 - the Toyota system in our former 2017 Prius Prime was inadequate. It was more a 'nagging' system with beeps, text alerts, and alarms. For example, lane following does a 'tug' when crossing a lane line. But it leads to crossing the opposite lane line and by the third tug, you are headed to the ditch or opposite lane.
  • Ford system - only works on divided highways and may have additional limits. Since +90% of my driving is on ordinary roads, it is too limited. There was no need for a driving test.
  • AutoPilot - works when lane lines and curbs can be detected, over 90% of my driving.
Bob Wilson
 
bwilson4web said:
This is wise and why I went to Cullman yesterday to see the Ford Mach-E. One of my hard requirements is driver automation:
  • TSSP-1 - the Toyota system in our former 2017 Prius Prime was inadequate. It was more a 'nagging' system with beeps, text alerts, and alarms. For example, lane following does a 'tug' when crossing a lane line. But it leads to crossing the opposite lane line and by the third tug, you are headed to the ditch or opposite lane.
  • Ford system - only works on divided highways and may have additional limits. Since +90% of my driving is on ordinary roads, it is too limited. There was no need for a driving test.
  • AutoPilot - works when lane lines and curbs can be detected, over 90% of my driving.
Bob Wilson
Click to expand...
The Ford lane keeping system works well on rural roads providing there are lane lines. No paint, No work
 
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[QUO
R P said:
I have said before, many times, I will reserve judgment on the Ioniq 5 (and the ID.4) when I get to see one in person, and see more real world tests and comparisons. But on paper (specs, design, appearance, etc) right now, the Ioniq 5 looks the best to me (not that I expect everyone to share my tastes/needs/wants). Early reports and initial production issues don't mean much to me.

But you can't make broad statements about Hyundai, and ignore this car. It is real. The Ioniq 5 is really the 3rd gen BEV for Hyundai, so I would expect they have learned a few things.
Click to expand...
R P said:
I have said before, many times, I will reserve judgment on the Ioniq 5 (and the ID.4) when I get to see one in person, and see more real world tests and comparisons. But on paper (specs, design, appearance, etc) right now, the Ioniq 5 looks the best to me (not that I expect everyone to share my tastes/needs/wants). Early reports and initial production issues don't mean much to me.

But you can't make broad statements about Hyundai, and ignore this car. It is real. The Ioniq 5 is really the 3rd gen BEV for Hyundai, so I would expect they have learned a few things.
Click to expand...

TE="R P, post: 138936, member: 14023"]Yes, where you live is not exactly a hotbed of EVs. What is your % of of new EVs sold in your state? In BC, where I live it is 10%, which is actually the highest rate per capita in North America.
https://www.coastreporter.net/bc-ne...leneck-due-to-pent-up-pandemic-demand-3938581

The Ioniq 5 is scheduled to be available for sale here in Canada in the fall, probably the same in other parts of the US as well. Meanwhile owners are already driving it in the EU. And the specs are well described. So it is certainly not a unicorn.[/QUOTE]

RP , will also check out VW ID4 when available, not sure whether to check the Ioniq 5 as from friends experience with ICE Hyundai's do not trust them as manufacturer and in the 1990's early 2000's found them to be low end poor quality back in that time period. Recent models in last year or 2 seem better.

Kind of discouraged right now as most new EV's are of the Suv/Cuv type which I am not fan of.

Station Wagen's changed to Mini vans, now Suv's....

11 of my last new 15 car's were convertible's. At car show's I always thought 4 door Lincoln from 1960's were so cool. A period of time when every name brand was distinct from each other.

Dan
 
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