Clarity life after 50596 miles

[Landshark]

From now on, when a new member's first post is a complaint about EV range, we need to demand a valid phone number before we begin our intensive, expert speculation about the problem only to have the OP disappear without answering any of our questions. </sarcasm>

I could give you our home land line number. We never answer it, but it is valid.

Whatever it takes to continue the speculation.

 

[ClarityBill]

I did a charger test on my battery... Not able to use the Honda charger because I will not be home for 12 hours.

Took 3 hours 45 minutes to charge with 16A 240V charger: 14.5 KWh

The charge of 14.5 KWh would indicate my battery is still very good... Lots of variables in my poor test, but it is a data point.

Started charge at 11:11 PM last night, and got the HondaLink notification at 2:56 AM

HondaLink says EV range is 32 (Right now, with 100% charge).

It is a cheap Chinese charger wired to my home power that tested 242 at the mains today.

I messed up coming home last night, and the EV range said 0.6 miles. OBDII SOC was 11.8%

I have 59,688 miles on the odo. I do a full charge whenever I get a chance. I have long drives at least 3 times per week that fully deplete the battery. My battery has been below 2% on the ODBII SOC several times.

I have burned 1066 gallons of gas, at 42 mpg, that would only leave 14,916 miles on electric. (My mpg is probably closer to 38, so that would be 19,180 EV miles - not much difference.)

Problems with the test:
Voltage drop to charger to determine true voltage at charging.
HondaLink delay on charge completion time
16A rating of charger is plus or minus?
Test did not start at EV 0

 

[MrFixit]

Nice Job !

I am anxious to do this myself, and plan to try the OEM charger (with a Kill-a-Watt to provide some additional parametrics).
Unfortunately, we are hardly driving given the circumstances. No driving --> No charging required !

 

[DucRider]

Problems with the test:
Voltage drop to charger to determine true voltage at charging.
HondaLink delay on charge completion time
16A rating of charger is plus or minus?
Test did not start at EV 0

None of the first factors have any significant impact on measuring battery capacity - only not starting with a "depleted" battery.

 

[Landshark]

IIRC, once the EV range drops below 1.0 miles, for instance, 0.9 or even 0.6, on the dash display, the infotainment display will show 0.0.

We’re picking fly droppings out of pepper on this one folks.

 

[ClarityBill]

I hooked up my Honda charger through a Kill-a-Watt type device...

Only shows 10.76 amps, and 2.06 KWh after 1 hour 35 minutes at 124 volts...

I thought it should have been 12 amps and 2.35 KWh in that time.

It is possible that Honda lowered the charging rate proportionally to the battery failure rate, but that seems unlikely.

Is anyone getting 12 amps on the Honda charger?

I won't be able to leave it hooked up for the 12-hour test, but the reduced amperage would make that test invalid.

I am also curious if my home charger is delivering the rated 16 amps. I have a second Chinese charger hooked up at the factory, so I will have to check both of those.

 

[MrFixit]

Is anyone getting 12 amps on the Honda charger?

I have no experience with the OEM charger, but I think your 10.76 amps seems consistent with some other forum posts. I know the OEM EVSE is marked as 12 amps, but it seems like that is not what the vehicle is actually doing at Level 1. I'll connect mine up tomorrow and report back. I can look at what the kill-a-watt says, but also corroborate the numbers with a DVM and clamp-on ammeter.

 

[ClarityBill]

I hooked up the Honda charger again.

Same house, different outlet. 50-foot 12 AWG extension cord.

Kill-a-Watt readings are 11.47 Amps 113.6 volts.

The Clarity was cold soaked overnight about 45F before I plugged it in.

My other level 1 charger was rated at 16 amps, and definitely charged faster than this one.
I was surprised the Clarity limits to less than 12 amps.

Seems like the external battery test cannot rely on the time to charge, but must use a more direct KWh measurement.

 

[MrFixit]

Seems like the external battery test cannot rely on the time to charge, but must use a more direct KWh measurement.

I'm not sure why you say this... You ARE measuring 'direct kWh'. The only assumption is that the EVSE is known and repeatable. In this case, just assume 11.5 amps at 120V --> 1.38 kW. Multiplying this by the time in hours, and you have kWh.

You observed 113.6 instead of 120, but that is likely because of the long extension cord. This lower voltage represents a 5% error, but if you know the voltage as you do, then use that number (11.5A @ 113.6V = 1.31 kW)...

BTW - I am in my car with the AP200. Where do you find the SOC value? Not immediately obvious.

 

[ClarityBill]

I'm not sure why you say this... You ARE measuring 'direct kWh'. The only assumption is that the EVSE is known and repeatable. In this case, just assume 11.5 amps at 120V --> 1.38 kW. Multiplying this by the time in hours, and you have kWh.

You observed 113.6 instead of 120, but that is likely because of the long extension cord. This lower voltage represents a 5% error, but if you know the voltage as you do, then use that number (11.5A @ 113.6V = 1.31 kW)...

BTW - I am in my car with the AP200. Where do you find the SOC value? Not immediately obvious.

I was doing this testing to determine if the EVSE is repeatable. Today the EVSE was running 11.5 amps, but yesterday it was 10.76 when I checked it. The result is that the EVSE is not repeatable.

I mentioned having to measure direct kWh because I do not normally hook up the Kill-a-Watt. I was hoping to just measure time to full charge and using that as an estimate of kWh, but time is not a sufficient measurement.

The next question is what causes variations in the EVSE (Charging is controlled by Clarity, so the variation would actually be a Clarity issue):
Maybe KW is consistent, and the voltage caused the difference.
Maybe battery temperature
Maybe battery failure condition
Maybe the gods are angry...

On my Blue Driver, SOC is listed as Hybrid Battery Pack Remaining Life.

 

[MrFixit]

I was doing this testing to determine if the EVSE is repeatable

Interesting observation...
Let me float another theory... Suppose the vehicle is always pulling the same power.

Yesterday you had 10.76A @ 124V = 1334 Watts
Today you had 11.5A @ 113.6V = 1306 Watts

That does seem like pretty good consistency !! (it is within 2%)

The time-based testing integrity may survive after all...

I am getting hooked up to measure mine. I'll report back with another data point. I do know with Level 2, I get very consistent power delivery of 7.2 kW (30 amps @ 240V).

 

[ClarityBill]

I got my battery fully charged with the Kill-a-Watt attached.
First session was 2.06 kWh.
Second session was 10.78 kWh
Pulled out of garage, parked overnight, and pulled back in driveway between sessions.
For a total of 12.84 kWh for a full charge.

I was not able to track the total time, but it does look like my battery capacity is reduced.

 

[MrFixit]

OK, I would like to offer another data point, and propose a strawman test.

Test conditions:

• Started with an EV range of zero, pulling into driveway
• Temperature around 55 Degrees F
• Starting SOC was 12% as read via OBD2
• Connected Kill-a-Watt to OEM EVSE

At beginning of the charge, Kill-a-Watt measured 117.3V @ 10.88A = 1276 W.
Validated this with seperate DVM and Clamp-on meter. These meters measured 117.9V @ 10.80A = 1273 W

Recorded Kill-a-Watt readings throughout charge until completion.


Here is a graph:

Here are my conclusions:

• Level 1 sucks - I am spoiled by L2, and wouldn't want to go back !
• Level 2 charges (maximum possible) at a 7.2 kW rate. Level 1 OEM EVSE charges at a 1.27 kW rate.
• My more extensive L2 experience indicated that my vehicle is currently taking ~ 13.5 kWh for a full charge (originally with 'new' battery, this was 14.5). This L1 experiment required 14.5 kWh. I think this is indicative as reported elsewhere, that L1 is not as 'efficient' as L2.
• Scaling this L1 measurement to account for what I believe to be my current 'degradation', I believe a 'full' charge with a 'new' HV battery should require this input energy from the EVSE:

L2 - 14.5 kWh
L1 - 15.6 kWh​

I would like to propose strawman test criteria. Charge your vehicle from a EV range of zero. Monitor to see how long it takes to reach a full charge. Compare to these tables to see where you stand.



Any feedback / comments / and other test results are welcomed !

 

[MrFixit]

I was not able to track the total time, but it does look like my battery capacity is reduced.

Based on my Strawman test, your total charge of 12.84 kWh (Level 1) puts you at about 82% of 'new' capacity (straddling yellow and green)....

 

[ClarityBill]

Wow, very impressive report.

I like the idea that EVSE is controlled to constant power. I had assumed the square wave generated by the EVSE was to determine amp capacity, but it makes more sense it is power capacity.

It is interesting that EVSE's are sold with amperage rating, but they are EV limited by power rating.

The test will be if the Honda unit goes over 12 amps at 110v. I think I have a 16 amp unit hooked to 208v: I should be able to check that one. At home, I have a similar unit hooked to 240v.

 

[ClarityBill]

I like the idea that EVSE is controlled to constant power. I had assumed the square wave generated by the EVSE was to determine amp capacity, but it makes more sense it is power capacity.

Well, not so much.

I checked my two 'identical' 16-amp Chinese chargers:
Home 15.8 amps - 241 volts = 3.81 KW
Work 15.4 amps - 213 volts = 3.28 KW

The theory was that power remains the same so lower volts would result in higher amps: Seems like there may be something else going on.

They are off by 15%.

An obvious problem might be that there would be voltage drop from the main box where I measured each, but the wiring to each seems similar. (12 AWG leaving box about 100 feet to charger connection)

Both were measured with the same clamp meter and volt meter.
Home was about 40% SOC
Work was about 16.9% SOC - (Still did not get the end of the trip right)
(100 miles of HV between and finish in EV)

 

[MrFixit]

Well, we are foiled again?
I am still optimistic about using actual charging energy as measure of battery capacity.

I was hoping that the average user could just 'assume' a certain input power (particularly using the OEM charger, or a random L2 charger that operates at the maximum vehicle capacity). Then a time-based measurement can work. You have found a case that seems too unpredictable.

Not sure what to say at this point... If you know your input power, it seems like this can work. Many people don't know this however.

 

[ClarityBill]

I am still optimistic about using actual charging energy as measure of battery capacity.

Even with the variability, seems like it is still safe to say the battery is pretty good if it takes over 10 hours for a full charge with the Honda Charger.

Less than 9 hours, and you may have a warranty failure.

 

[MrFixit]

Agreed...

Let me take another shot at a 'simplified' guide...

Using your OEM charger, perform a full charge (starting with an EV range of zero).
Check your charging status at 8 and 10 hours to see if it has completed..



Or,
If you have a Level 2 charger that operates at the full capability of the vehicle (240V @ 30 Amps, or 7.2 kW),
perform a full charge and check the status at 80 minutes, and 100 minutes to see if it has completed.



Similar guidelines can be developed for other charger capacities, but these are the most commonly used.

 

[ClarityBill]

I like it!

Seems like good information to pass onto the next person with an EV range complaint.