MarkClarity
Active Member
My condenser failed, but dealership says it is on backorder with no ETA. Anyone else waiting on a condenser? Wondering if this is a couple of weeks, or several months!
Clarity A/C problem (and warranty extension on pg 10)
- Thread starter Benoit Paquette
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My system ran a bit low on refrigerant, as evidenced by progressively longer than usual cool-down times, eventually culminating in blowing reasonbly cool air out the registers but failing to adequately cool the cabin in 101 deg F ambient on 1 hr long drive. Dealership insists they need a day and a half for diagnosis & repair, which is problematic, given their location in relation to my domicile. A cursory inspection of what I can see of the condenser w/car on ramps does not reveal any oily spots. I put what I'd guess to be 2/3 of a 12 oz can of R-1234yf in it last Friday (21 June, 2024) and as of yesterday afternoon it was still performing admirably. This morning, as well, but even when it was low on charge and struggling, it was fine in the mornings at 80-ish F ambient.
So I reckon wherever my leak is, it is relatively small.
So I reckon wherever my leak is, it is relatively small.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
It is certainly reasonable to assume that the leak is 'small' and add Freon. There are two possible outcomes - First, the leak is indeed 'small' and you can go for a year or two before needing to add more. Second, the leak is not small, and when you see that it doesn't hold, then you bite the bullet and seek the dealer / warranty repair. It is unfortunate that you see no visible sign of a leak (oil stain) because that would clinch it and you could seek a dealer repair with confidence.
One warning though - It would not be good to just add some Freon if the system is completely empty because that means there is air / moisture inside and you could do more damage without pure Freon in the system. Your symptoms told you that there was still some Freon in there so adding was 'safe' to do.
@MrFixit provides sound advice. That was part of my calculus in purchasing the can of R-1234YF locally on Friday even though I had already ordered a supply online that was inbound. Also inbound at the time but not yet (at the time) having arrived were adapters to allow fitment of my manifold & gage set as well as a can tap with the appropriate LH threads. Having "some" evidence that it was a slow leak, I did not a) want to continue to be uncomfortable after a day-long hot soak in the afternoon commute and b) allow the refrigerant to leak to the point that it's static pressure was below atmospheric, leading to ingestion of contaminants.
Of course, without knowing how much charge remained, it is not possible, apart from blind luck, to restore the system to the properly specified charge level. And if one were to evacuate the system and pull a vacuum, with an unknown and unmended leak...well same as inducting foreign matter previously discussed. Haven't yet had time to put the gauges on it and check pressures but will do so prior to the upcoming road trip of approximately 2.5K miles. Doubtful I will have opportunity to turn it over to the dealer for 1.5 days prior to that and also dubious that it would be returned working as well as it is now if I did. If, in fact it is a condenser failure (or evap failure as many here have experienced) I would not expect a timely repair - in the case of the former I doubt a dealer in NTX maintains inventory of Clarity condensers, especially if generally on back-order, and in the case of the latter, I would probably waive the dealer fix and associated charge and continue feeding it over-priced refrigerant until retirement when I could tear the dash apart for evap replacement at my leisure. In any case, I would expect as part of diagnosis, the dealer would hook up their recovery machine and perform an evacuate and recharge, likely leading to a contaminated system...or worse, "You have a leak, we don't have parts so can't fix it yet, and we're not allowed to charge a system with a known leak.
Even at $80/12 oz, and the thus far demonstrated leak rate, this would still be cost-effective vs. saddling up one of the other vehicles in my stable for the 100+ mile daily commute.
Of course, without knowing how much charge remained, it is not possible, apart from blind luck, to restore the system to the properly specified charge level. And if one were to evacuate the system and pull a vacuum, with an unknown and unmended leak...well same as inducting foreign matter previously discussed. Haven't yet had time to put the gauges on it and check pressures but will do so prior to the upcoming road trip of approximately 2.5K miles. Doubtful I will have opportunity to turn it over to the dealer for 1.5 days prior to that and also dubious that it would be returned working as well as it is now if I did. If, in fact it is a condenser failure (or evap failure as many here have experienced) I would not expect a timely repair - in the case of the former I doubt a dealer in NTX maintains inventory of Clarity condensers, especially if generally on back-order, and in the case of the latter, I would probably waive the dealer fix and associated charge and continue feeding it over-priced refrigerant until retirement when I could tear the dash apart for evap replacement at my leisure. In any case, I would expect as part of diagnosis, the dealer would hook up their recovery machine and perform an evacuate and recharge, likely leading to a contaminated system...or worse, "You have a leak, we don't have parts so can't fix it yet, and we're not allowed to charge a system with a known leak.
Even at $80/12 oz, and the thus far demonstrated leak rate, this would still be cost-effective vs. saddling up one of the other vehicles in my stable for the 100+ mile daily commute.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
In the manual, it lists the refrigerant charge as 13.9 – 15.7 oz. If you clearly notice that the cooling is degraded (but not yet 'dead'), my feeling is that most of the refrigerant is gone. So, I think the 2/3 of a can (~8 oz) that you added is conservative. In reality the whole 12 oz can may have safely gotten you closer to a full charge, but you were being cautious. With gauges (and knowledge of the charging procedure) you could more accurately top it off.
What continues to bug me is the fact that this R-1234YF is $80 for a 12 oz can. It seems absurd that it is maybe triple the cost of R-134.
I have attached the procedure for checking the charge level (requires gauges and thermometer(s))...
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Well, I'd caution everyone to be careful when purchasing. Lots of "tom-foolery" going on with the constant greenie attacks on refrigerant. I was actually surprised to find a 12 oz can at the local O'Reilly's after ordering a 3-pack of 8 oz cans from Amazon for $104. In the pics, they appeared to be the same size can as you'd get 12 oz of R-12 or R-134a in. Upon delivery, that appearance is confirmed. The 12 oz can is taller ($79.99+ tax = 86 somethingmore) 12 oz. could be had from the same O'Reilly store for $69.99+ tax (still robbery, IMO) without the charge hose and low-side port fitting. I actually began the checkout process with that one but happened to ask the man, "Did they change the can-tap threads as well?" "Oh yeah, they're LH thread now!" Aight then, I'll need the one with the hose.
Lots of 4 oz cans available online, as well, and appear to be similar in size to what we expect to have 12 oz in, historically.
My guess of 2/3 dispensed was exactly that - a guess. There is a bit left, you can tell by shaking the can there's some liquid aboard. While I'm not terribly familiar with the electric-driven compressor systems utilized in hybrids/EV's, nor certainly with R-1234YF, I did manage the engineering design function for a couple of Tier 1 OEM suppliers between 1993-2005, which included the changeover from R12 to 134a. What I recall from wind-tunnel charge determination tests is that for most any automotive system using either of those 2 refrigerants, 4 oz wouldn't even begin to show any cooling action. Rather, just rapid compressor cycling until you ascended thru about 5-6 oz, depending upon the size of the heat exchangers and length of connecting pipes (or system volume, if you will.)
Thanks for the file, I plan to check it with the gauges this weekend, but as of yesterday, it was still performing as well as ever, dropping the interior temp as reported by the app from 135 to 105 in the first 5 min of operation, on down to 90 after 15 min. And that is as-reported on the app. When sliding into the seat, the interior felt cooler than 90 from a "sensible" perspective.
Now to decide if I want to give up cargo-space to the gauge-set and 3-pack...or take my chances with what's leftover in the O'Reily's can and potential requirement to purchase a second one should the leak rate demand it on our post-Independence day trip...or just take the wife's freshly-serviced Avalon. I'll post back when/if the leak point is identified and the associated corrective action.
Lots of 4 oz cans available online, as well, and appear to be similar in size to what we expect to have 12 oz in, historically.
My guess of 2/3 dispensed was exactly that - a guess. There is a bit left, you can tell by shaking the can there's some liquid aboard. While I'm not terribly familiar with the electric-driven compressor systems utilized in hybrids/EV's, nor certainly with R-1234YF, I did manage the engineering design function for a couple of Tier 1 OEM suppliers between 1993-2005, which included the changeover from R12 to 134a. What I recall from wind-tunnel charge determination tests is that for most any automotive system using either of those 2 refrigerants, 4 oz wouldn't even begin to show any cooling action. Rather, just rapid compressor cycling until you ascended thru about 5-6 oz, depending upon the size of the heat exchangers and length of connecting pipes (or system volume, if you will.)
Thanks for the file, I plan to check it with the gauges this weekend, but as of yesterday, it was still performing as well as ever, dropping the interior temp as reported by the app from 135 to 105 in the first 5 min of operation, on down to 90 after 15 min. And that is as-reported on the app. When sliding into the seat, the interior felt cooler than 90 from a "sensible" perspective.
Now to decide if I want to give up cargo-space to the gauge-set and 3-pack...or take my chances with what's leftover in the O'Reily's can and potential requirement to purchase a second one should the leak rate demand it on our post-Independence day trip...or just take the wife's freshly-serviced Avalon. I'll post back when/if the leak point is identified and the associated corrective action.
One isue with just recharging is the possible loss of the refrigerant oil with the leaking refrigerant. I caught the leaking condensor on our Clarity not by any reduced cooling but by the puddle of oil on the garage floor. I had looked at the condensor every once a year oil change and never saw any oil spots on the visible ondensor fins or tank. After i saw the oil puddle, I also saw that the condensor fins were quite oily. The systm had lost about half the original oil charge.
BTW, the Clarity AC system has no seals on rotating shafts. Everything is in a completely sealed system. Any refrigerant leak is caused by a actual part failure rather than leaks through seals (yes, o-rings can leak but such leaks are caused by a bad or damaged o-ring).
LeoP
BTW, the Clarity AC system has no seals on rotating shafts. Everything is in a completely sealed system. Any refrigerant leak is caused by a actual part failure rather than leaks through seals (yes, o-rings can leak but such leaks are caused by a bad or damaged o-ring).
LeoP
I gave my Meater 2+ barbeque tools some fragmentary duty....
Recirc Air intake: 82.4 F (Tuna Steak)
Vent Discharge: 59.5 F (Ribeye Steak)
Hi Side Press: 192 psi
Lo Side Press: 45 psi
(Should've taken my IR Thermometer and checked suction and pressure line temps...but didn't)
Static P 155/73 about 2 min post-shutdown
While i didn't print them out and put a T-Square and straight-edge to them, my on-screen analysis indicates all four graphs are compliant to the shaded region. Unfortunately, no pressure numbers in the pdf on pages 11 and subsequent, but in general, 45/192 is reasonable, though I'd prefer to see the discharge a bit higher, and perhaps the suction a bit lower. 59.5 discharge air nothing to brag about, either, but fairly harsh conditions and according to the test procedure; "Good enough."
I'll definitely add the remnants of the 12 oz. can before next Saturday, and maybe more depending on the results of the subsequent test procedure, but for now, I'll ride as-is and maybe monitor vent discharge temp as ideally that should report in the high 30's or low 40's 20-30 minutes into a highway run on auto.
Recirc Air intake: 82.4 F (Tuna Steak)
Vent Discharge: 59.5 F (Ribeye Steak)
Hi Side Press: 192 psi
Lo Side Press: 45 psi
(Should've taken my IR Thermometer and checked suction and pressure line temps...but didn't)
Static P 155/73 about 2 min post-shutdown
While i didn't print them out and put a T-Square and straight-edge to them, my on-screen analysis indicates all four graphs are compliant to the shaded region. Unfortunately, no pressure numbers in the pdf on pages 11 and subsequent, but in general, 45/192 is reasonable, though I'd prefer to see the discharge a bit higher, and perhaps the suction a bit lower. 59.5 discharge air nothing to brag about, either, but fairly harsh conditions and according to the test procedure; "Good enough."
I'll definitely add the remnants of the 12 oz. can before next Saturday, and maybe more depending on the results of the subsequent test procedure, but for now, I'll ride as-is and maybe monitor vent discharge temp as ideally that should report in the high 30's or low 40's 20-30 minutes into a highway run on auto.
I STRONGLY advise not even touching the A/C system. R1234YF is *really nasty* stuff when it gets contaminated, and it's really easy to dig yourself a deep hole in your wallet by "fixing" the AC system yourself.
MrFixit
Well-Known Member
Please elaborate. There are hazards with any refrigerant.
When r1234yf reacts with air it makes acid that trashes refrigerant systems
TC1782's comment about the POE oil used in AC systems with r1234yf refrigerant can be expanded. The POE oil reacts with the moisture in the air to form an acid which is highly corrosive. The filter-dryer in the AC system will not remove the acid after it is created by the POE oil reacting with the moisture.
I have a speculation about the failure of some Clarity AC parts after the condenser is replaced. The system should be left open a very minimal amount of time during the condenser replacement. However, some service technicians may leave the system open a very long time. This allows moisture in the air to react with the refrigerant creating the acid. This acid can damage the new condenser as well as the evaporator. This might be able to be checked by Honda looking at the Clarity repair records to see if most of the evaporator failures are after condenser replacements.
Again, this is only a speculation.
LeoP
I have a speculation about the failure of some Clarity AC parts after the condenser is replaced. The system should be left open a very minimal amount of time during the condenser replacement. However, some service technicians may leave the system open a very long time. This allows moisture in the air to react with the refrigerant creating the acid. This acid can damage the new condenser as well as the evaporator. This might be able to be checked by Honda looking at the Clarity repair records to see if most of the evaporator failures are after condenser replacements.
Again, this is only a speculation.
LeoP
I concur with your theory, another thing too is that typically the amount of time where you have to pull a vacuum in a r1234yf system is longer than that of other refrigerant systems, and at a dealership you really don't want to take up much time, so less time than it should would be taken pulling a vacuum.
The Honda TSB on this AC issue details the use of the Robinair R-1234yf A/C Recover, Recycle, Recharge Machine to do all the work with the refrigerant. If the dealer techs use this machine, everything is automatic and recorded so there is little chance that any vacuum time is too short. The tech just sets the car parameters and things proceed automatically. My local dealer used such a machine and I got a copy of the Robinair printout so I could make sure things were done right. I actually got both printouts, the first being from the initial refrigerant and oil extraction showing how much of each was removed. The second printout showed how much of each was added. I would not have brought our Clarity to the dealer for the fix if the dealer did not use one of these machines. However, it still matters how much time the system is open to the air while the parts are replaced. I have heard of times when a condenser was removed before the dealer had a replacement ready to install.
LeoP
LeoP