Batterygate MY2018 Leaf

[JyChevyVolt]

People in Japan have reported battery overheating when DCFC. You can't do multiple DCFC session because of the battery overheating.

New Leaf is the same old Leaf.

 

[Domenick]

People in Japan have reported battery overheating when DCFC. You can't do multiple DCFC session because of the battery overheating.

New Leaf is the same old Leaf.

Do you have a link for that? I found an overheating issue from a couple years ago, but linked to the chargers, not the car's batteries.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

Doesn't surprise me at all.

There was a similar problem reported from a UK driver in June 2016, about the battery pack overheating (or more specifically, coming close to overheating) due to multiple DCFC charging sessions on a long trip, and that was with the outside temperature only in the sixties! That was with a 30 kWh battery, so we know it was a recent model year Leaf.

So, yeah: The new Leaf is just lipstick on a pig. The outside looks a lot nicer, but it's still the same ol' no-battery-TMS Leaf underneath.
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[JyChevyVolt]

Do you have a link for that? I found an overheating issue from a couple years ago, but linked to the chargers, not the car's batteries.

This test was at 9C (48 F). During summer when temperature get up to 90 degree will exacerbate the situation.

Worst news. The leaf is extremely inefficient averaging 3.3 miles/kWh on 31 mph average.

Any road trip with 3 DCFC would cripple the Leaf. The battery temperature will make it impossible to DCFC.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

The leaf is extremely efficient [EDIT] inefficient [/EDIT] averaging 3.3 miles/kWh on 31 mph average.

EDIT: I responded before JyChevyVolt posted his correction. I'm leaving my obsolete comment here so as not to disrupt the flow of conversation, but readers should be aware that's not what he meant to say. Apologies for the confusion. --Pushy

Correct me if I'm wrong, but atho 3.3 miles/kWh is certainly far better than any gasmobile or mild hybrid, it's not as good as newer BEVs such as the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt EV, or the Tesla Model 3.
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[JyChevyVolt]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but atho 3.3 miles/kWh is certainly far better than any gasmobile or mild hybrid, it's not as good as newer BEVs such as the BMW i3, the Chevy Bolt EV, or the Tesla Model 3.
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Typo. It's not efficient. On second thought the efficiency is ok since it comes out to 303 watt hour per mile. The model 3 in real world is 285 watt hour per mile. Take the 3 to UK with rain and cold temp, the 3 might come to 303 watt hour per mile.

 

[silversod]

Ouch! that doesn't bode well for hotter climates, did you clock the price of fuel as he was leaving the services? £1.39 litre/=£6.33/=$8.87 UK gallon daylight robbery.

 

[Marcel_g]

Yeah, that battery temperature from DCFC is concerning. You might be able to get a third DCFC session in a trip, but it's iffy, and the third one will be throttled back to lower KW, so it won't go that fast. If you started at 100%, you could get 160-180km on the first leg (allowing for colder temps, wet roads, head winds, etc.) if you drove at 100kph, not at 113kph like this driver was doing, then charge to 80% at each stop. 2nd and 3rd legs would get 120-140km, and if you tried a 3rd DCFC session, another 120-140km. Maybe not at warmer temps. That would give 400-460km of road trip range with 2 charging sessions, if your chargers are well located, and maybe 520-600km if you attempt a 3rd charge, if you're ok with waiting for it to charge at a lower rate.

As far as efficiency goes, getting 3.3 miles / kwh doesn't seem too bad for traveling at over 110kph, with wet roads, pro-pilot and the heater on periodically. We also don't know about wind direction with this trip. Reduce the speed to 95 and turn off pro pilot and the heater, and that goes up quite a bit.

 

[Cypress]

Do you have a link for that? I found an overheating issue from a couple years ago, but linked to the chargers, not the car's batteries.

 

[IrmaIsfot]

I hade the opportunity to borrow a Tekna this past weekend. A great improvement over my 2016 30kWh, in looks as well as in features and functions! But...

Started with 100% from overnight charging.
Temperature about 4 C / 40 F.

Drove about 100 km at 100kph (110 on spedometer). Had almost 40 km left on the GOM, so range is about 30% more than my 2016 30 kWh, as expected.

1:st fast charging started at 43 kW. At 50% it started to decrease. At 80% it was down to 26 kW. Didn't make note of how high I went, I'd guess 90-95%.

Drove back, same 100 km, but now att 110 kph (120 on the meter).

2:nd fast charging started from about 20% at only 18 kW. And never rose above that! Estimated charge time to 75% was 1,5 hours!

At this time I was running late, so I don't remember exactly how long I waited. I think I had almost 140 km on the GOM when I set off.

Now I drove another 90-100 km, at varying speeds, 80 - 110 kph.

3:rd fast charging started from 15% at a measly 15 kW! Did not go higher than that. After about 25 minutes, I had to go return the car. At that time it was up to about 35%. It would have taken yet another hour to get to 75-80%.

This is totally unacceptable and an absolute deal breaker for me!

My 2016 30kWh can go 3 charge cycles without decreasing charge power, in this wheather. During summer (which means maybe 20 C in Sweden...) I have noticed a small decrease during the 3:rd charge. (I use LeafSpy.)

Maybe the battery temperature can be kept at a lower level by driving at 95 kph without using the heater, but that is not realistic. In order to accept an electric replacement for the ICE, the general public demands a direct replacement that can travel the same roads at the same speeds and as comfortable as an old ICE car.

 

[Cypress]

Well, explains why it is $8k less than the Bolt EV.

 

[Domenick]

Robert Llewellen just made a Fully Charged video addressing this #rapidgate slow charging issue. Makes some good points about conclusions, causation and correlation.

Although he points out he only knows of a couple cases, it seems to me that the problem is more commonplace. I also think it's likely a software problem and not the batteries, per se.

 

[Astros]

There is a lot of useful information in Bjorn's video from yesterday (), which was carefully collected over 1000km in a single day and included some tests suggested by the livestream viewers. For example, the charging rate depends on the temperature of the battery when you plug the vehicle in. So, if you unplug and plug the car back in after the battery has heated up from the first charge, the next session will probably be slower. This is the case even if you've only done a few minutes of charging during the first session. Also, if the battery cools off between charges, the next charge will be faster. Finally, any heater or accessory use during charging is taken from the reduced rate! So, even if you're at a 50kW charger and you're reduced to 22kW because of your battery temperature, if you put the heater on full blast and it uses 1.5kW, that comes out of the 22kW and the battery will only get 20.5kW.

One viewer (not me) compiled a short table of charging rates observed during the trip, along with the battery temperature measured by LeafSpy:

Temp (Celcius) | Max charging rate
____________________________________
32º | 42.6 kW
37.1º | 30.9 kW
39.6° | 26.1 kW
41.0º | 25.9 kW
45.4º | 22.1 kW

 

[JyChevyVolt]

There is a lot of useful information in Bjorn's video from yesterday (), which was carefully collected over 1000km in a single day and included some tests suggested by the livestream viewers. For example, the charging rate depends on the temperature of the battery when you plug the vehicle in. So, if you unplug and plug the car back in after the battery has heated up from the first charge, the next session will probably be slower. This is the case even if you've only done a few minutes of charging during the first session. Also, if the battery cools off between charges, the next charge will be faster. Finally, any heater or accessory use during charging is taken from the reduced rate! So, even if you're at a 50kW charger and you're reduced to 22kW because of your battery temperature, if you put the heater on full blast and it uses 1.5kW, that comes out of the 22kW and the battery will only get 20.5kW.

One viewer (not me) compiled a short table of charging rates observed during the trip, along with the battery temperature measured by LeafSpy:

Temp (Celcius) | Max charging rate
____________________________________
32º | 42.6 kW
37.1º | 30.9 kW
39.6° | 26.1 kW
41.0º | 25.9 kW
45.4º | 22.1 kW

Think summer. Ouch.

 

[Marcel_g]

I really wonder if the new chemistry that allows for 40kwh in the same space is even less durable, so Nissan set the BMS to protect it a lot more aggressively than the older chemistries?

 

[Paul K]

Well when you drive a gasser you should pay attention to your gauges. If you see the coolant temp heading towards the red zone you have to slow down or get off the road for a cool down. With a Leaf you should be paying close attention to your temp bars and not regularly engaging in activities that push them too high. The downside of no TMS is that long trips requiring DCFC top ups aren't going to work out very well especially in high temperatures. The upside is that there is one less system (the TMS) to fail and it lowers the purchase price of the car. Lowered it to the point where someone like me could afford one. This got me into the EV experience and I'm lovin it. I have a 2016 30kwh pack with almost 33,000km on it and no issues. Silly me. I'd even buy another one down the road.

 

[Kenneth Bokor]

Well when you drive a gasser you should pay attention to your gauges. If you see the coolant temp heading towards the red zone you have to slow down or get off the road for a cool down. With a Leaf you should be paying close attention to your temp bars and not regularly engaging in activities that push them too high. The downside of no TMS is that long trips requiring DCFC top ups aren't going to work out very well especially in high temperatures. The upside is that there is one less system (the TMS) to fail and it lowers the purchase price of the car. Lowered it to the point where someone like me could afford one. This got me into the EV experience and I'm lovin it. I have a 2016 30kwh pack with almost 33,000km on it and no issues. Silly me. I'd even buy another one down the road.

Exactly, this is the target market that Nissan is after for the new leaf. Not the road warriors who want to drive multiple DCQCs' per day. You can do it, but as previously explained in this thread, it may take you much longer than other EVs. There is no hiding this.

My issue is that Nissan should make this feature clear to prospective buyers in qualifying their purchase. At the dealerships, buyers should be asked their driving profiles and if they plan on doing long trips, told that the new Leaf BMS throttle-downs multiple DCQC-ing in order to protect the battery from high temps. I've made this clear to Nissan UK as well as Nissan Canada and hope they listen and act on this.

There will be no fix, fans installed, etc. on this EV. You want ATM and a Leaf, wait for MY2019 60 kWh version. The 2018 Leaf is designed and marketed IMO to the vast majority of new owners as well as previous EV-ers that can use this range profile in their daily lives. For me, I knew this situation before making my purchase as 95% of my daily driving is only 60-70kms. I wake up to 260-300kms right now with these summer temps. So multiple rapid charging is a non-issue for me. I think there are thousands of buyer with similar profiles. Something must be working as sales of the new Leaf are skyrocketing and Nissan can't keep up with production.

Again, this issue is being way overblown. If you want to do long trips a lot and don't want to wait 1.5Hours for a 75% rapid charge, then look at other options like the Bolt, I3, Model 3, etc. Or look at a hybrid - anything that has a plug is a great step in the right direction. For the price-value equation, the new Leaf is a solid choice.

 

[Tom S.]

Exactly, this is the target market that Nissan is after for the new leaf. Not the road warriors who want to drive multiple DCQCs' per day. You can do it, but as previously explained in this thread, it may take you much longer than other EVs. There is no hiding this.

My issue is that Nissan should make this feature clear to prospective buyers in qualifying their purchase. At the dealerships, buyers should be asked their driving profiles and if they plan on doing long trips, told that the new Leaf BMS throttle-downs multiple DCQC-ing in order to protect the battery from high temps. I've made this clear to Nissan UK as well as Nissan Canada and hope they listen and act on this.

There will be no fix, fans installed, etc. on this EV. You want ATM and a Leaf, wait for MY2019 60 kWh version. The 2018 Leaf is designed and marketed IMO to the vast majority of new owners as well as previous EV-ers that can use this range profile in their daily lives. For me, I knew this situation before making my purchase as 95% of my daily driving is only 60-70kms. I wake up to 260-300kms right now with these summer temps. So multiple rapid charging is a non-issue for me. I think there are thousands of buyer with similar profiles. Something must be working as sales of the new Leaf are skyrocketing and Nissan can't keep up with production.

Again, this issue is being way overblown. If you want to do long trips a lot and don't want to wait 1.5Hours for a 75% rapid charge, then look at other options like the Bolt, I3, Model 3, etc. Or look at a hybrid - anything that has a plug is a great step in the right direction. For the price-value equation, the new Leaf is a solid choice.

*** Yes - Nissan should tell prospective buyers this information - I NEVER would have bought my 2018 Nissan Leaf if the sales person had told me this very critical info - I purchased the Leaf specifically and only for the purpose of Ubering - and this throttling makes long distance driving nearly impossible (given the crazy slow charging speeds after the 1st DC FC)

 

[Kenneth Bokor]

*** Yes - Nissan should tell prospective buyers this information - I NEVER would have bought my 2018 Nissan Leaf if the sales person had told me this very critical info - I purchased the Leaf specifically and only for the purpose of Ubering - and this throttling makes long distance driving nearly impossible (given the crazy slow charging speeds after the 1st DC FC)

Hi Tom, yes it is not cool that this feature was not known or properly qualified to early buyers like yourself. I know a few folks who feel the same way. However, I'm hopeful that Nissan has changed the frontlines with information so that they can inform prospective buyers adequately so they can make an informed decision.

The Leaf is a good value-priced and feature-rich BEV for all-around general use. For hard-core long-distance driving needs on a regular basis, it would not be my choice in it's current state (40kWh).

I'm hopeful the 60kWh version will come with the features needed for more intense driving needs.

 

[Pushmi-Pullyu]

...I'm hopeful that Nissan has changed the frontlines with information so that they can inform prospective buyers adequately so they can make an informed decision.

I thought Nissan signaled pretty early on in selling the Leaf that they had absolutely no intention of warning any prospective buyer of the limitations of the car. I was, and still am, shocked that they sold it in the Phoenix area. Nissan should have refused to supply the car to dealers in Phoenix, as well as a few regions of California and Texas where the temperature often remains at or above 100° all day and all night for at least a few days a year. Furthermore, they should have issued warnings to those buying the car that it was not suitable for long-term residents of those regions.
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