Battery breakthroughs

Here in Australia there is absolutely no grants, subsidies and other incentives. In fact most of the EVs fall into the Luxury car bracket due to their price. We have a car culture where a some people will take some convincing to move away from the rumble of a big ICE. We have very large distances between population centres and very little infrastructure between them. So electric vehicles have their work cut out to attact the average Australian. Yet even here they are still selling and the numbers are increasing.
 
Its a good point. 620 miles on a charge for the roadster and can charge an EV by leaving it out in the sun if you have the proper umbrella or one that is built to turn sun tan into charge.
 
Well, if you want to cheer yourself up, then look at Tesla.

A more realistic picture of the industry as a whole would be gained from looking at ALL the manufacturers however.
 
As no-one bothered to comment, here's the latest battery breakthru- AGAIN! 9 months to wait and ZERO curiosity??

"A team of Korean scientists succeeded in developing silicon oxide nano powder, which is a cathode material for lithium ion batteries which can double the capacities of electric car batteries. Accordingly, the new material will double electric vehicles’ travel distances. When the material are mass-produced starting next January, electric vehicles powered by this material will be able to run 500km on one charge."

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engl...rean-researchers-develop-battery-material-can
 
Jim J Fox said:
As no-one bothered to comment, here's the latest battery breakthru- AGAIN! 9 months to wait and ZERO curiosity??
Click to expand...

It's not that I (and many others) have zero curiosity. It's that after hundreds of breathless, wide-eyed announcements of battery breakthroughs over the past several years, announcements about revolutionary batteries or supercapacitors which are going to be put into production any year or month or day now, announcements which lead to absolutely nothing at all, we're more than a bit skeptical of new breathless, wide-eyed claims.

Stick around awhile, and odds are you'll get to that place too.

I am optimistic about the increasing buzz over claims that solid-state batteries will soon go into production. I look forward to that actually happening. Hopefully it actually will, within a couple of years or so! And if some other type of revolutionary battery (or supercapacitor) goes into commercial production before then, that will be an unexpected and delightful surprise, but I'm certainly not gonna wait for that with bated breath!
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Jim J Fox said:
As no-one bothered to comment, here's the latest battery breakthru- AGAIN! 9 months to wait and ZERO curiosity??

"A team of Korean scientists succeeded in developing silicon oxide nano powder, which is a cathode material for lithium ion batteries which can double the capacities of electric car batteries. Accordingly, the new material will double electric vehicles’ travel distances. When the material are mass-produced starting next January, electric vehicles powered by this material will be able to run 500km on one charge."

http://www.businesskorea.co.kr/engl...rean-researchers-develop-battery-material-can
Click to expand...

Sounds good, but so do all the other breakthroughs we've see. Perhaps this will be different but I'll believe it when it happens. For the time being, we're stuck at about 150 Wh/kg.
 
Martin Williams said:
Sounds good, but so do all the other breakthroughs we've see. Perhaps this will be different but I'll believe it when it happens. For the time being, we're stuck at about 150 Wh/kg.
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No - the Tesla Roadster 2 battery is likely to be about 2X the energy density of the current Tesla battery. It may even be higher than that.
 
Well, when I divide the published energy capacity (75kWh) of the Model 3 battery pack by its published weight (500kg) I get around 150 Wh/kg. This is in line with the more sober assessments of what is currently possible with Lithium-ion batteries.

Despite claims to the contrary, they don't seem to have improved much, unless those in previous Tesla cars were a lot worse than I thought.
 
I think the problem is that researchers tend to weigh the anode and cathode they are using, add in the weight of the electrolyte and use that as the weight. This give a MUCH higher figure for energy density when divided into the energy stored.

Unfortunately, a practical battery requires all sorts of casings, supports, fixings, coolant, sensors, heaters etc. with the result that the energy density is a lot lower. It would seem however, that battery cars will continue to trundle along with a half ton 'gas tank' for the foreseeable future.
 
NeilBlanchard said:
No - the Tesla Roadster 2 battery is likely to be about 2X the energy density of the current Tesla battery. It may even be higher than that.
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Just my opinion, but I don't think the Roadster Mk II (my term, not Tesla's) uses significantly improved batteries. I think Tesla just stuffed a lot more batteries into the car. But they're not under the floorboards. The Roadster Mk I had all the batteries in a pack behind the seats. It's possible the Mk II has batteries behind the back seat and also under the hood.

One commenter said that the Mk II's floor is so low that there can't be even a single layer of batteries under it. That's certainly not proof, but perhaps he's right.
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Martin Williams said:
Well, when I divide the published energy capacity (75kWh) of the Model 3 battery pack by its published weight (500kg) I get around 150 Wh/kg. This is in line with the more sober assessments of what is currently possible with Lithium-ion batteries.
Click to expand...

That reads like you're figuring a pack-level Wh/kg figure, not a cell level energy density. That's not how battery makers or EV makers describe energy density. It should be cell level. Pack level is rather meaningless, because certain things are either inside the pack or outside it, in different EVs. Gravimetric energy density is also affected by how heavy the casing is, which again has nothing to do with how advanced the battery cells are or are not.
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Martin Williams said:
Well, Who am I to argue that a one or two percent market penetration is not a rip-roaring success story!
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You're the guy who's arguing that the cumulative sales total of 6,475 H2 fuel cell vehicles sold globally, over the years 2013-2017, is a rip-roaring success story. That's who! :rolleyes:

But then, things such as self-consistency or logic have never been the mark of fool cell fanboys.
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Pushmi-Pullyu said:
It's not that I (and many others) have zero curiosity. It's that after hundreds of breathless, wide-eyed announcements of battery breakthroughs over the past several years, announcements about revolutionary batteries or supercapacitors which are going to be put into production any year or month or day now, announcements which lead to absolutely nothing at all, we're more than a bit skeptical of new breathless, wide-eyed claims.

Stick around awhile, and odds are you'll get to that place too.

I am optimistic about the increasing buzz over claims that solid-state batteries will soon go into production. I look forward to that actually happening. Hopefully it actually will, within a couple of years or so! And if some other type of revolutionary battery (or supercapacitor) goes into commercial production before then, that will be an unexpected and delightful surprise, but I'm certainly not gonna wait for that with bated breath!
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Agreed. But I thought this announcement different from the swathe of lab breakthru's due to its backing from producers & pre-orders from reputable battery suppliers. Also it is due in January, NOT "in the 2020's"... not long to find out the truth, for once.
 
Pushmi-Pullyu said:
That reads like you're figuring a pack-level Wh/kg figure, not a cell level energy density. That's not how battery makers or EV makers describe energy density. It should be cell level. Pack level is rather meaningless, because certain things are either inside the pack or outside it, in different EVs. Gravimetric energy density is also affected by how heavy the casing is, which again has nothing to do with how advanced the battery cells are or are not.
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Click to expand...

It really makes no difference if you take pack or the more optimistic cell level, provided you compare like for like when assessing battery progress or lack of it. I believe looking at the battery pack is more realistic as that is what the driver actually experiences.

To me, a car carrying half a ton or more of laptop sized battery cells - 7,000 of them in one case - is ludicrous!
 
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