[Autocar] Battery life uncertainty prompts concern over used EVs

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SameGuy said:
No. Just threw it out there because it’s interesting. I can’t imagine how many Roadsters are still running, though I suspect any current owners are indeed well-enough-heeled to do the necessary work. Whether or not it’s considered one of the seminal cars in automotive history is debatable, but it certainly is notable and examples are worth preserving.
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I never saw the inside of a Roadster until Marques Brownlee got to borrow one and posted this vid last month. Definitely first generation on the inside. I thought it was interesting.

 
polyphonic said:
Anecdotally I have come across an unsettling number of i3 battery warranty complaints online. Batteries with 68-80% SOH. Tesla has sold well over a million Model 3s and I can’t remember any complaints above 5-10% health loss. They also tend to put on vastly more mileage.
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The oldest Model 3s are barely over 5 years old while the oldest i3s are 10 years old. You're going to find that difference. 3% for 10 years puts you at 70% SOH.

Both my 2015 and 2011 Leaf (with replacement 2015 battery) averaged around 2.5% per year degradation, so in 10 years would be at 75% as long as it's close to linear. However, that's a car that started with (on a good day) 85 miles of range, so that would put it at 64 miles of range at 10 years. Still viable for city driving.
 
Iamspeed said:
Interesting thanx for that.
Apart from M3's, ev's are pretty thin on the ground here ATM so it will be a good business opportunity to be the first here when the time is right.
I guess the trouble is, apart from pollen filters and brake fluid flushes, there is not so much general maintenance services to make the easyish money on which means these types of business will be less mechanic's and more photocopy technicians.
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I take care of a few off warranty i8s. They are full of annoying an expensive issues.

the huge problem with Tesla is not service data/info that’s all open source. It’s being approved to buy parts. They have to see if you are worthy of them. We have done brakes and basic stuff on Model S and 3 because the owners don’t want to deal with Tesla and a 6 week wait. Luckily a supplier of ours keeps brakes etc in stock. We have also done lots of lowering springs on Model 3s. Very very simple car to work on actually

build quality is wonky though. Some cars are literally ziptied together while others won’t be. I removed the frunk liner on a few to change the springs and wiring main harnesses were literally taped in place.
 
MrSnrub said:
I take care of a few off warranty i8s. They are full of annoying an expensive issues.

the huge problem with Tesla is not service data/info that’s all open source. It’s being approved to buy parts. They have to see if you are worthy of them. We have done brakes and basic stuff on Model S and 3 because the owners don’t want to deal with Tesla and a 6 week wait. Luckily a supplier of ours keeps brakes etc in stock. We have also done lots of lowering springs on Model 3s. Very very simple car to work on actually

build quality is wonky though. Some cars are literally ziptied together while others won’t be. I removed the frunk liner on a few to change the springs and wiring main harnesses were literally taped in place.
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LOL
one of the reasons why we didn’t buy a tesla in the end was I trust bmw to do a bit better job of putting a car together.
Hats off to you mechanical types for moving with the times. Wish I had the smarts to be able to fix ****
 
Full charge completed at 10 pm, left plugged in outdoors, cold-soaked overnight at +2°C. Hit the road this morning, partly- to mostly cloudy, dry conditions, +3°C for my semi-regular 122 km drive to Plattsburgh. Once out of the neighborhood and surface streets, freeway at 110 km/h (cruise) with occasional slowdowns in suburban traffic, and bursts to as much as 140 km/h. More than 80% of the drive at 110.

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Arrived with 28% remaining on the IC, pessimistic GOM showing 44 km available. Averaging 16.8 kWh/100 km. So yeah ima go out on a limb and confirm that the Busyforks either gets crap efficiency in very similar conditions, or Toyota is outright lying about its results.

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MrSnrub said:
I still laugh at how bad the GOMs are
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Yesterday when it was about 5 ºF, while driving in green mode with A/C on, my GOM said I had 53 miles left. I turned off A/C and it went to 52 miles. Then I switched from green to mid mode (to get full heat) and the GOM went up to 60 miles!
 
I should add that I did this drive on full Nordic winter tires, although they were pumped a bit harder than recommended, at 38/35 psi. I’m not sure what tires the two webzines were using.
 
SameGuy said:
I should add that I did this drive on full Nordic winter tires, although they were pumped a bit harder than recommended, at 38/35 psi. I’m not sure what tires the two webzines were using.
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I think the busyforks was fine for efficiency, but the WLTP numbers are overly inflated leading to inflated real-world disappointment.
 
teslarati97 said:
I think the busyforks was fine for efficiency, but the WLTP numbers are overly inflated leading to inflated real-world disappointment.
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If you watch thelatebrakeshow Johnny talks about the wide range of WLTP ratings. Based on what I’ve read here and YouTube the Mini SE range is maybe underrated by 20-30% but I guess it’s better to under rate Vs overrate then get sued
 
MrSnrub said:
I still laugh at how bad the GOMs are
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Today, the GOM showed 58 miles and my wife (more pessimistic than the GOM) was worried that I'd run out of juice on my 45-mile trip with winter tires. Upon my return, the GOM read 20 miles. Does that mean the GOM was pessimistic before the trip and optimistic afterwards?

I was so confident that I didn't pay much attention to the GOM--I was engrossed in listening to my newly-awakened AM radio.
 
Temperature is a triple whammy.

1) There is 10% more air friction at 0C than 27C.
2) The heater uses a lot of juice - especially at lower temps where the resistive element is used.
3) Winter tyres have a worse rolling resistance, and hence use more electrons.

In sunny Queensland, the winter temp is almost ideal for EVs (25C), and the summer offsets air con with lower air friction (less dense air).

In this ideal scenario, WLTP is easily achieved even with spirited driving. EPA is laughably low, and the GOM is even worse. Over here, we (ok, I) take the GOM and add 40%. I do this by doubling the estimate twice, and dividing by 10. This is the extra range the GOM is short by. EG.

GOM reads 160km, double is 320, double is 640, divide by 10 is 64. So the GOM is out by 64km, total range is 224km. This is still a low value, but I know I can get this at 110kph on the freeway. Around town, it would be more like 50-60% low.
 
Would it be better for the GOM to be overly-optimistic and run people out of charge or be overly-pessimistic and people get to their destinations but complain about the GOM online?
 
DJCoopster said:
Would it be better for the GOM to be overly-optimistic and run people out of charge or be overly-pessimistic and people get to their destinations but complain about the GOM online?
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No. It would be just as bad. An unrealistic one either way is bad. I seriously don't even look at mine and wish it would just be replaced with battery percentage as an option there vs having that only as one choice at tge bottom.
 
My theory on why we are so disappointed with the GOM is that the relative size of it commands our attention. If it was as small as some of the other displays, we'd have learned to ignore it. And for me, the percentage display is hidden by the wheel.
 
The resistive heater must kick in at extremely low temperatures as the heat pump becomes 100% efficient at -15C which is the same power use as a resistive heater.
My tests show that the heat pump at 0degC causes a range drop of about 20% vs 20degC weather which does not need heat (or AC).
 
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