At what electricity price overnight charging at home gets more expensive than filling ICE with gas?

[George Davidson]

The "all-the-fees-included" price of electricity in our county increased to CAD0.40/kWh (checking last month's utility bill) from the previous CAD0.25/kWh.

One year ago, based on that time prices of electricity and gas, I calculated that charging our EV overnight at 40 cents/kWh would become as expensive as filling our second car (ICE) with gas.

It happened.

Though I never considered it seriously before, I will need to start looking at the EV as something that may not be the best long-term financial solution for my family. Once the EV is paid off, we may buy a hybrid as a more financially realistic solution to get the best of both worlds.

At what electricity price ($/kWh) would it be financially beneficial for you to return to gas?

 

[bwilson4web]

There is a factor of 3 between the least efficient EVs and most efficient. What make and model of EV and ICE vehicles?

Bob Wilson

 

[George Davidson]

There is a factor of 3 between the least efficient EVs and most efficient. What make and model of EV and ICE vehicles?

Bob Wilson

Let us consider Hyundai Kona EV 2019 and Pontiac Pursuit 2005.

 

[teslarati97]

What are your fixed fees and what are your variable fees?

 

[George Davidson]

What are your fixed fees and what are your variable fees?

Copying the lines:

Used energy 341 kWh $21.11
Administration fee $5.71
Distribution charge $75.31
Transmission charge $16.88
Rate riders $5.83
Local access fee $5.67
Total: $130.51

GST: $6.53
All-in $137.04

$137.04 / 341 kWh = $0.40/kWh

All the fees and charges are variable and calculated on how much energy is used. The ratios do not change. The more power is used, the higher fees and charges are.

I checked several bills, all the fees and charges depend on the energy used. Nothing is fixed, unfortunately.

Checking the past bills, our most used monthly energy was $120.

In the last bill, the used energy ($21.11) makes 15.40% of All-in ($137.04).

Applying 15.40% on the past most used monthly consumption of $120, the total All-in would be $779.

If 15.40% is the "new normal" for future electricity bills, then I think that is not sustainable long term for us.

Unfortunately, this is a rural area.

I just checked the nearest FLO fast charger which is some 20 km faraway:

$0.25 (CAD) per minute SAE Combo (50 kW)

Maybe in the summer, it'd be cheaper to charge there, but it's not that convenient.

 

[teslarati97]

All the fees and charges are variable and calculated on how much energy is used. The ratios do not change. The more power is used, the higher fees and charges are.

Let's assume you live in the only province in Canada that does not have PST. You pay $0.0619/kWh retail and about $0.08/kWh variable transmission/distribution/riders. For easy math that's $0.15/kWh (with GST) or $51.15 of variable costs and $85.89 fixed costs. So 37.3% of your bill was variable and 62.7% was fixed.

What baffles me the most is that your monthly consumption is 341 kWh. Are you even charging your Kona EV at home?? A 64kWh Kona EV and 341kWh used per month is literally charging 0-100% once a month. An average household consumes about 700kWh per month without an EV so before you go out to buy a second EV, consider going all electric and skip natural gas!

 

[George Davidson]

Let's assume you live in the only province in Canada that does not have PST. You pay $0.0619/kWh retail and about $0.08/kWh variable transmission/distribution/riders. For easy math that's $0.15/kWh (with GST) or $51.15 of variable costs and $85.89 fixed costs.

What baffles me the most is that your monthly consumption is 341 kWh. Are you even charging your Kona EV at home?? A 64kWh Kona EV and 341kWh used per month is literally charging 0-100% once a month. An average household consumes about 700kWh per month without an EV so before you go out to buy a second EV, consider going all electric and skip natural gas!

Your "$0.0619/kWh retail" is correct

but

your "about $0.08/kWh variable transmission/distribution/riders" is incorrect.

It is more like a $0.33 - 0.34 variable transmission/distribution/riders.

 

[teslarati97]

Your "$0.0619/kWh retail" is correct

but

your "about $0.08/kWh variable transmission/distribution/riders" is incorrect.

It is more like a $0.33 - 0.34 variable transmission/distribution/riders.

FortisAlberta is $0.003/kwh variable distribution 0.0466/kWh transmission and $0.0023/kWh rate rider.

Where you are getting slaughtered are the rural peak demand (distribution) charges of $0.31/kVa per day for the full month. Let's say you happened to charge your EV and run an electric dryer, so that could potentially be $0.31 x 10kW x 30 days = $93. Peak is the highest 15 min usage in any part of the month.

 

[electriceddy]

Your "$0.0619/kWh retail" is correct

but

your "about $0.08/kWh variable transmission/distribution/riders" is incorrect.

It is more like a $0.33 - 0.34 variable transmission/distribution/riders.

Sounds like you are served by ATCO c/w highest distribution charges in Alberta

with these rates, solar may be a worthwhile investment
Here in BC we pay very low distribution charges:
Basic Charge
A small, daily amount that partially recovers fixed customer-related costs, including customer service channels, metering, billing, payment processing, collections, and distribution system costs that are customer-related (electrical lines and transformers).

$0.2090 per day.
Distibution covered in Basic charge on my last bill equaled $12.96 for 62 days, so a long way to go for solar investment to be worthwhile (in my case)
BTW price per kWh =$0.095 step 1, (which I rarely exceed) and $0.14 step 2 (if I exceed 1,376 kWh for the period).

Cost of gas here is $1.61 per liter, so a long way off going back in that direction as well.
I am now approaching 11 years driving BEV, I don't see going back to gas in my future.

 

[teslarati97]

Sounds like you are served by ATCO c/w highest distribution charges in Alberta

He's in rural (farmland) with peak demand charges so the only way to really cut back is to derate the EVSE or charge at level 1 (if it increased peak demand).

 

[R P]

Plus really cheap gasoline in Alberta, which the Texas of Canada. And they just recently cut all the fuel taxes there.

 

[George Davidson]

FortisAlberta is $0.003/kWh variable distribution 0.0466/kWh transmission and $0.0023/kWh rate rider.

Where you are getting slaughtered are the rural peak demand (distribution) charges of $0.31/kVa per day for the entire month. Let's say you happened to charge your EV and run an electric dryer, so that could be $0.31 x 10kW x 30 days = $93. Peak is the highest 15 min usage in any part of the month.

The distribution charge is the same day & night / 365. There is no peak / off-peak rate. It does not matter if you charge overnight or during day hours.

 

[George Davidson]

Sounds like you are served by ATCO c/w highest distribution charges in Alberta

with these rates, solar may be a worthwhile investment
Here in BC we pay very low distribution charges:
Basic Charge
A small, daily amount that partially recovers fixed customer-related costs, including customer service channels, metering, billing, payment processing, collections, and distribution system costs that are customer-related (electrical lines and transformers).

$0.2090 per day.
Distibution covered in Basic charge on my last bill equaled $12.96 for 62 days, so a long way to go for solar investment to be worthwhile (in my case)
BTW price per kWh =$0.095 step 1, (which I rarely exceed) and $0.14 step 2 (if I exceed 1,376 kWh for the period).

Cost of gas here is $1.61 per liter, so a long way off going back in that direction as well.
I am now approaching 11 years driving BEV, I don't see going back to gas in my future.

True, ATCO is known to be greedy.

 

[George Davidson]

He's in rural (farmland) with peak demand charges so the only way to really cut back is to derate the EVSE or charge at level 1 (if it increased peak demand).

There are no peak demand charges. The charges are the same 24-7-365.

 

[teslarati97]

The distribution charge is the same day & night / 365. There is no peak / off-peak rate. It does not matter if you charge overnight or during day hours.

I believe it's Rate 22 under FortisAlberta.

 

[George Davidson]

Plus really cheap gasoline in Alberta, which the Texas of Canada. And they just recently cut all the fuel taxes there.

You are right "really cheap gasoline".

That is why it may be cheaper to use gas at a certain "threshold" price for overnight charging.

 

[George Davidson]

I believe it's Rate 22 under FortisAlberta.

View attachment 19167

The "all-the-fees-and-charges-included-price" has changed every month since August.

Some 5 cents/kWh per month. From 25 to 30, 30 to 35, and 35 to 40.

We will see where it stops.

 

[teslarati97]

The "all-the-fees-and-charges-included-price" has changed every month since August.

Some 5 cents/kWh per month. From 25 to 30, 30 to 35, and 35 to 40.

We will see where it stops.

Yes that's probably why the province is so anti-EV! I mean $5.71 admin fees for 341 kWh is $0.0167/kWh, and if you even tried to halve your consumption to 171kWh admin fees are now $0.0334/kWh!!!! Deregulation really screwed over your province.

 

[George Davidson]

Yes that's probably why the province is so anti-EV! I mean $5.71 admin fees for 341 kWh is $0.0167/kWh, and if you even tried to halve your consumption to 171kWh admin fees are now $0.0334/kWh!!!! Deregulation really screwed over your province.

I would not say the province is anti-EV. That is not the perception here. I would not buy an EV otherwise. It was a purely economic decision based on the financial calculation at that time.

Deregulation?

Travers Solar Farm (Canada's largest solar project) was built in Alberta rather than another province due to deregulation as one of the reasons.

Deregulation made the private $500M investment much easier.

 

[R P]

The problem with EVs in Alberta and across the prairie provinces is the cold winters with 40- 50% range loss. Not to mention a lack of EV charging stations when you get away from the cities and the Trans Canada Highway.