Are Clarity charging plugs interchangeable with Prius plugs and vise-versa?
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Yep. You should be just fine. The Prius Prime uses a J1772 connector just like the Clarity so that will work.
Mowcowbell
Well-Known Member
In fact, the Prius Prime has a evse (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment) that is identical to the one in the Clarity. Made for worldwide use by Panasonic, it will run on either 120v or 240v power. Use mine exclusively on 240v power; it will charge empty to full in about 5.5 hours.
We have a Chrysler Pacifica PHEV and it too has an OEM EVSE that will run on 240V. I keep it at my shop plugged in exclusively to 240.
Nissan would disagree. CHAdeMO is the other, not-as-common, connector.
The LEAF has a J1772.
The CHAdeMO is used only for DC Fast Charging and all vehicles that use this standard will also have a J1772 for AC charging (Outltander PHEV, i-MiEV, Soul EV, etc)
Thanks, I just learned something today.
coutinpe
Active Member
I was going to say that my cheapo Zencar level 2 portable charger was sold to me as compatible with Fiat 500e, Chevy Volt, BMWi series Toyota Prius plug-in, Ford Fusion, C-Max and... NIssan Leaf! But DucRider draw first
. BTW, they didn't mention the Clarity as compatible but it's the same J1772 thing, or at least has been working for me for a year.The thing to keep in mind is that the “charger” is not really a charger. It’s simply a smart switch which supplies either 120 VAC or 240 VAC to the car. The charging circuitry in the car itself is what determines how much current to pull. This is why pretty much any “charger” with a J1772 plug will work with any car that has a J1772 receptacle.I was going to say that my cheapo Zencar level 2 portable charger was sold to me as compatible with Fiat 500e, Chevy Volt, BMWi series Toyota Prius plug-in, Ford Fusion, C-Max and... NIssan Leaf! But DucRider draw first
coutinpe
Active Member
Thanks for the clarification!
Here's an interesting charging conundrum that results from all EVs being designed to protect their batteries by slowing the charging rate as their batteries approach a full charge.
The MINI Cooper SE has a 50 kW onboard charger vs the 100 kW charger of the Honda e, but the Honda e doesn't charge even close to twice as fast. In fact, both cars charge from 0-80% in about the same time (30 minutes for the Honda e's 36.5 kWh battery vs 35 minutes for the SE's 32.6 kWh battery).
Even though the Honda e can draw 100 kW, it does so for a very short time before it starts tapering off the charge to something closer to the SE's 50 kW charging rate. If they both had 60 kWh batteries, the charging time difference would be much greater because the Honda e could maintain the full 100 kW charging rate for much longer before approaching a full charge and tapering off the charging rate.
Like the Honda e, the Clarity Electric's 50 kW charger tapers off pretty quickly due to the car's relatively small (for a BEV) 25.5 kWh battery, so it also takes 30 minutes to charge from 0-80% on a DC Fast Charge box.
Of course, unlike a PHEV driver, no BEV driver ever willingly drives their car down to a 0% charge.
The MINI Cooper SE has a 50 kW onboard charger vs the 100 kW charger of the Honda e, but the Honda e doesn't charge even close to twice as fast. In fact, both cars charge from 0-80% in about the same time (30 minutes for the Honda e's 36.5 kWh battery vs 35 minutes for the SE's 32.6 kWh battery).
Even though the Honda e can draw 100 kW, it does so for a very short time before it starts tapering off the charge to something closer to the SE's 50 kW charging rate. If they both had 60 kWh batteries, the charging time difference would be much greater because the Honda e could maintain the full 100 kW charging rate for much longer before approaching a full charge and tapering off the charging rate.
Like the Honda e, the Clarity Electric's 50 kW charger tapers off pretty quickly due to the car's relatively small (for a BEV) 25.5 kWh battery, so it also takes 30 minutes to charge from 0-80% on a DC Fast Charge box.
Of course, unlike a PHEV driver, no BEV driver ever willingly drives their car down to a 0% charge.
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That’s very interesting. Makes you wonder if somewhere along the way Honda was contemplating a larger battery.
The situation you present is a lot more complicated than above, and there also several misconceptions and misstated facts.
The onboard charger is not used for DC charging. The Honda e onboard charger is 7.4 kW on single phase power or 22 kW on 3 phase. The Mini e is the same 7.4 on single phase but only 11 kW on 3 phase (these are Euro specs and the 7.4 is 32A @ 230V)
Vehicles and charging really don't use kW as a spec, they use amps (and volts).
Vehicle manufacturers that give miles (or percentage) on a xx kW charger sometimes are not actually specifying the charge rate the vehicle can achieve, but instead the rating of the charger required to get the maximum rate.
A 50 kW DCFC could be rated for 100A @ 500V, or often 125A @ 450V (The "50kW" is rounded down from 54). You can even find "50 kW" chargers that are actually 125A @ 500 volts and technically 62.5 kW.
A 100 kW DCFC will usually be at least 200A (@ 500V, 225A @ 450V, etc)
Lets look at the Honda e:
It's max charge rate is actually 50 kW, but it needs 140A to get that (hence the 100 kW fast charger requirement). Since the 140A is higher than any "50 kW" DCFC that follows the CCS specs can achieve, Honda must specify using a 100 kW DCFC station to get the fastest charging.
Looking at the mini e:
A quick scan didn't find any graphs or user info on the mini, but since it uses BMW i3 batteries, drivetrain, etc, it's pretty safe to use the info from an i3 as a comparison. The i3 will need 125A to get close to the promised 50 kW (max in the real world seems to be ~ 48kW). On a 100A charger, the rate will be less.
If the mini e charges in a similar fashion to the 33 kWh (94 Ah) i3, charge rate from about 10% SOC will start at about 42 kW and gradually rise to about 48 before tapering at about 80% SOC.
The Clarity Electric on board charger is listed at 6.6 kW, just like the PHEV (30A @ 220V). While Honda says "50 kW" DCFC capable, it doesn't ever draw more than about 42 kW.
@DucRider, I'm learning a lot. What part of a BEV handles DC charging and limits the DC charging rate? Would the Clarity Electric have charged any faster if it accepted 100 kW (or an equivalent Amp/Volt combo) like the Honda e?
Do manufacturers and DC Fast-Charge kiosks list the charging rate in kW because listing Volts and Amps separately would be too confusing and more difficult to compare? Isn't the charging fee linked to the number of kW delivered?
Was I correct that the reason the Honda e doesn't charge much faster is because the tapering off of the car's charging rate begins early in the charge cycle to preserve the small battery?
Regarding the MINI's battery, MINI couldn't fit the i3's Samsung battery into the Cooper S, so that car uses a more advanced CATL battery of about the same capacity. MINI claims the CATL battery is less prone to cold-weather range-reduction than the Samsung battery.
Finally, when I read in 2019 that the upcoming MINI Electric would charge at 11kW on AC, I ran out and bought an 11kW EVSE to replace the one I was using to charge the Clarity. Later, the big "Doh!" when I found out 11kW charging requires a 3-phase AC EVSE and a non-J1772 connector. Clearly "future-proofing" requires a better understanding of the future than I had.
Do manufacturers and DC Fast-Charge kiosks list the charging rate in kW because listing Volts and Amps separately would be too confusing and more difficult to compare? Isn't the charging fee linked to the number of kW delivered?
Was I correct that the reason the Honda e doesn't charge much faster is because the tapering off of the car's charging rate begins early in the charge cycle to preserve the small battery?
Regarding the MINI's battery, MINI couldn't fit the i3's Samsung battery into the Cooper S, so that car uses a more advanced CATL battery of about the same capacity. MINI claims the CATL battery is less prone to cold-weather range-reduction than the Samsung battery.
Finally, when I read in 2019 that the upcoming MINI Electric would charge at 11kW on AC, I ran out and bought an 11kW EVSE to replace the one I was using to charge the Clarity. Later, the big "Doh!" when I found out 11kW charging requires a 3-phase AC EVSE and a non-J1772 connector. Clearly "future-proofing" requires a better understanding of the future than I had.
How different BMS systems handle fast charging is a bit of a black art, and a bit of a dance between performance and battery health.
The BMS system controls the amps and volts from the DCFC station, similar to how it controls the DC produced by the on-board charger (converted from the AC supplied by your EVSE). Even the lower charge rates from your EVSE taper as the battery gets full. The higher the SOC of the battery, the greater the impedance/resistance. Throwing too much energy into a battery results in energy converted to heat instead of a stored charge.
As to taper due to battery size, there doesn't seem to be a direct correlation. Bigger batteries can take a higher charge rate, so if you start with rate close to the max the battery will take, taper will start sooner. If, however, you aren't charging at the peak rate, you won't have to reduce that rate as quickly.
The i3 rate actually increases up to about 80% SOC, then tapers quickly. The Bolt EV with a ~2x bigger battery charges at only a little higher rate than the i3, but taper starts at ~40% SOC.
Battery chemistry and other characteristics will be part of the variables taken into account when a vehicle manufacturer programs the charging parameters.
How the manufacturers list their DCFC equipment varies, but most will be listing it according to the new CharIN (CCS) ratings. Details on them in the link that follows:
https://www.charinev.org/fileadmin/Downloads/Papers_and_Regulations/CharIN_DC_CCS_Power_Classes.pdf
How charging networks list their chargers is another matter.