That's not necessarily true - in the US, the federal, state and local governments have broad powers to protect health and safety if necessary. if challenged in court the government would need to show a “compelling government interest” and then prove that the government action was narrowly tailored to meet that goal. However, it's unlikely that the government won't allow people out of their homes to get food, health care, and outdoor exercise. Prohibiting your precious right of assembly in groups without social distancing is one of the most important things that can help fight this thing. It shouldn't need to be an order but based on the Florida spring breakers and people like you who are willing to threaten the health of the rest of us, and the economy, maybe it will need to be an order.
Anyone else in lockdown?
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That's not necessarily true - in the US, the federal, state and local governments have broad powers to protect health and safety if necessary. if challenged in court the government would need to show a “compelling government interest” and then prove that the government action was narrowly tailored to meet that goal. However, it's unlikely that the government won't allow people out of their homes to get food, health care, and outdoor exercise. Prohibiting your precious right of assembly in groups without social distancing is one of the most important things that can help fight this thing. It shouldn't need to be an order but based on the Florida spring breakers and people like you who are willing to threaten the health of the rest of us, and the economy, maybe it will need to be an order.
Maybe you should watch something other than Fox news and President Trump's press conferences. You're saying that the infection rate per capita would be lower if we had more tests measuring total infections, but regardless, the absolute numbers of sick people, people requiring hospitalization, people dying, is absolutely overwhelming the health system in the New York area among others, just as it has in Italy, Spain and other places. Health care workers themselves are getting infected due to a lack of PPE (thanks Trump!) and infecting their families, doctors are having to choose who gets a ventilator and who is left to certain death (thanks Trump!), and it's nowhere near its peak (thanks people not taking it seriously, because they listen to Trump).
Today in Lancaster, California an 18 year old girl died. And a 12 year old in Georgia was put on a ventilator. So you never know. Yes, for most people it might be minor, survivable symptoms, but they might infect and kill grandparents or take precious health care workers off the front lines. A friend of mine is an ER doctor recovering from Covid. He didn't need hospitalization but it was the most hellish home flu you can imagine, waking up drenched in sweat and gasping for air day after day. He hopes to be back in the ER in a week or so (hopefully immune). He is a hero!
Toolworker
Well-Known Member
Here, just north of San Francisco, we've been "sheltering in place" for about a week, first the Bay Area counties, then statewide. We're old enough to avoid going where other people are, particularly indoors. The big deprivation so far is the closure of our county parks, particularly our local open space trails, so we have nowhere nice to exercise. Hordes of San Franciscans thronged them this weekend and ruined it for everyone.
No. But some people will. The question is whether hospitals will be overloaded to the extent that people die unnecessarily, from both the virus and other life-threatening but treatable conditions. Here in the U.S., this is likely, due to equipment and facility shortages, particularly the shortage of protective gear to keep medical personnel healthy and working.
No. But some people will. The question is whether hospitals will be overloaded to the extent that people die unnecessarily, from both the virus and other life-threatening but treatable conditions. Here in the U.S., this is likely, due to equipment and facility shortages, particularly the shortage of protective gear to keep medical personnel healthy and working.
NRH
Active Member
Looks like NZ may be getting ahead of it in good time. We're hoping the same here in Maine, where the virus arrived a couple weeks later than other states, and so our distancing measures were put in place relatively early - while we had about 50 (per million people) confirmed cases.
My wife (physician) is off to a fever clinic this morning. Hopeful that we'll all get through this without running out of essential resources.
On a lighter note getting back to EVs. As my Leaf is primarily used as a service vehicle and I'm now out of work I had gone a whole week without charging as I've learned from INSIDE EVs not to charge to full if you don't need it. Then I had to take my sibling for a trip to hospital emerg (last place I wanted to go near) and
returned home with a 12% charge by around 5pm. I usually charge during the wee hours but in case another situation required it I activated timer #2 in the Leaf
to pick up a few hours in the evening while forgetting to disable timer #1. So next morning I was at 100% charge.
I did have a short run to do and actually put the heater on to draw the charge back down to about 88% where it is now. At the risk of sounding smug I really am grateful I don't have to go near the gas pump handles and use the touch screens on the pumps.
returned home with a 12% charge by around 5pm. I usually charge during the wee hours but in case another situation required it I activated timer #2 in the Leaf
to pick up a few hours in the evening while forgetting to disable timer #1. So next morning I was at 100% charge.
I did have a short run to do and actually put the heater on to draw the charge back down to about 88% where it is now. At the risk of sounding smug I really am grateful I don't have to go near the gas pump handles and use the touch screens on the pumps.
hobbit
Well-Known Member
I'm making the assumption that Everclear or other grain alcohol, cut with a little water,
will make workable antiviral hand sanitizer. Or one of the high-concentration rubbing
alcohols, if you can find it anymore. I keep a little bottle of it on a lanyard around my
neck when I have to go out, so I can disinfect from touchimg something right there
on the fly. Not that I'm going out that much, of course, but stores are an occasional
necessity and it's probably prudent to regard them as pathogen sources.
It's a nice theory, anyway. I'm not convinced that we even fully understand how this
thing spreads yet.
_H*
will make workable antiviral hand sanitizer. Or one of the high-concentration rubbing
alcohols, if you can find it anymore. I keep a little bottle of it on a lanyard around my
neck when I have to go out, so I can disinfect from touchimg something right there
on the fly. Not that I'm going out that much, of course, but stores are an occasional
necessity and it's probably prudent to regard them as pathogen sources.
It's a nice theory, anyway. I'm not convinced that we even fully understand how this
thing spreads yet.
_H*
Jamas
Active Member
Nothing beats soap, whenever practical...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/d...d-soap-heres-the-science-behind-it-2020-03-08
Jamas
Active Member
I have soap water in a spray bottle. When I go to the grocery store, I spray it on the cart handle. When I'm done shopping, I also spray some on my hands. Not ideal, but given that stores are all out of hand sanitizer, it gets the job done.
R P
Well-Known Member
And/or wear one of these... Sorry, hope my attempt at a little levity is not too inappropriate at this time.This is a stupid thread. #unfollow and just wash your hands.
FloridaSun
Well-Known Member
Broad powers? Federal laws, state laws and local laws may not infringe upon constitutional rights. Constitutional rights are a limit on government. Just because of an unconstitutional law still being on the books because it has not been challenged does not make it constitutional.
Curfews laws clearly violate our 5th amendment.
Fifth Amendment
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Fifth Amendment: An Overview
The Fifth Amendment of the U.S. Constitution provides, "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law;
So, government at any level may not deprive you of Liberty without due process. Not being able to leave your house at certain times is violating your liberty without due process. A medical emergency does not suspend our constitution.
During Hurricane Katrina, police in Lousiana went to confiscate guns from law abiding citizens, leaving them defenseless against looters.
The courts later ruled that this was unconstitutional. Civil Liberties are very important. Of course, I voluntarily choose not to engage in anything that could infect me or my family but I just oppose big government.
FloridaSun
Well-Known Member
I don't really care for Trump or FoxNews.. They are just as fake news as most other media outlets.
There are policies that work that don't require government infringing upon our citizen's constitutional rights. Social Distancing works. Government should guide and warn people, not infringe upon our rights. I'm a registered Libertarian and care less about the 2 party dictatorship.
ITown
Active Member
Mortality rate is directly affected by whether or not hospitals have sufficient capacity to accept all of the sickened patients.
According to https://covidtracking.com/data/ about 10% of all people who've tested positive are being hospitalized. If the hospitals get overloaded, or the nurses all get sick, then you can be sure that the mortality rate goes up.
Why?
Because that 1% mortality rate assumes that people who need treatment actually receive treatment, as happened in China.
In Italy, the mortality rate is considerably higher: about 10%.
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/italy/
There are three factors at play which lead to this being an issue in Italy, and the USA has two of the three.
1. Italy also is struggling to test everyone who is sick. (Similar to the USA)
2. Italy's healthcare system has been overwhelmed with COVID19 patients. (This will be happening within a week in NYC and within a few weeks in the rest of the USA)
3. Italy's population is quite old. 22% of Italy's residents are aged 65+. This is comparable to 21% of Florida's residents who are aged 65+.
It may feel liberating to blow off shelter-in-place rules, but the cost of doing so greatly exceeds the benefit.
Also - be aware that those who survive the virus after experiencing the more severe symptoms (i.e. are put on a ventilator in order to live) will suffer permanent lung damage and may experience cognitive decline. Strongly recommend this article: https://www.propublica.org/article/...ilure-from-covid19-even-in-his-young-patients
Toolworker
Well-Known Member
And 4: Italy, like the U.S., has a culture where many if not most individuals feel they have a right to evaluate any given law or regulation and decide for themselves whether it is necessary for them to obey it in that particular situation, regardless of how qualified or empowered the authority might be.
ericy
Well-Known Member
There is another reason that is probably highly relevant. On Feb 19th, there was a soccer match between Bergamo and Valencia. The game was played in Milan, and tens of thousands of fans would have traveled from Bergamo to Milan for the game (about a 1-hour drive). Reports are that 35% of the Valencia team has since tested positive
https://time.com/5809848/game-zero-soccer-game-italy/
ehatch
Active Member
Can you not use a bylaw to stop your neighbor from blocking you in? It sounds like there should be a government solution.I have already seen 3 gas stations closed in the few times I have ventured out of self isolation.The gas stations may have shut down for price.They bought high,and then the price drops happened while they still had the old fuel. Us EV people may actually have more transportation fuel available than ICE if OPEC decides to just shut down production.What's left in reserve doesn't get released in volume to meet reduced COVID19 demand.We can charge via solar if needed.
Flatten the curve is the global effort.The non mandated isolation,inadequate or inexistent international airport screening has driven the rise in cases.In Italy,and a few other countries, you will be arrested if you break quarantine for non essential movement. It is amazing psychologically how mandatory restrictions on where you can venture impacts how one deals with your COVID19 reality that may not be different in most cases
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ehatch
Active Member
@jde2019kona One big difference,you may have to now deal with {TP,paper towel,lysol wipe,dorritos...} hoarders.Add annoying line ups for some places to manage social distancing that you already practiced.
KiwiME
Well-Known Member
I have our lawyer working on it but he's expensive and very, very slow. At this point I can't legitimately drive anyway as I don't need to for "essential purposes" and we're in an official state of emergency. On the bright side I can still go for walks along the beach and the weather is nice. The vast majority of people are abiding by the policies and so our time isolated won't be wasted. It's the second day now and I'm actually liking it. Total quietness all day and all night, yet I'm the city center. I have no neighbors either side as well.
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