Ivan Salazar
Member
I think this is changing rapidly with governments committing to support ev charging stations in each country.
An elephant in the room
- Thread starter Raylo
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Keith Smith
Well-Known Member
Nationwide, the EV rapid charging infrastructure is still sorely lacking. That being said many states and places have initiatives to get rapid charging every 100 miles or so along all the travel corridors. As an example, Montana has created incentives for charging along all of the routes to it's touristy destinations. At last look it appears that many of the projected locations will be available before the scheduled availability dates. This is definitely going to be rocky for a while. Getting on plugshare I see new fast charging stations popping up all over, but many are frequently unavailable and reported broken or degraded, so it's still a little dicey, but brave souls are running around trying it out.
The BEST use of an EV is still as a commuter, or a business delivery vehicle, where the wheels return home every evening, or travel back and forth between known locations with private infrastructure you can charge from overnight. Three to five years things should be quite different. I expect this to progress like gas stations did from the 60's to today only faster. Gulf card, Esso card, Sinclair card, Texaco card, .... Then get rebates, and a set of tumblers with a fill up of 10 gallons! Now its shove your favorite charge card in the reader, we want your money.
There will never be as many charging stations as filling stations, because you CAN charge at home or at a destination where you might park for a few hours. Expect the charging station paradigm to shift, to a set of charging stations, and a coffee/food court rest area approach. Like a Flying J truck stop for charging. I'm actually a little surprised there are not more of these 'Travel Centers' putting in charging infrastructure, but I do think it's just a matter of (a relatively short) time before someone figures out an optimal retailing scenario for charging.
"Coffee & Watts Charging centers, free coffee and bagel if you fill up here".
"Sonic Drive in and Charge, stay in your car, we will plug you in and bring you food"
The BEST use of an EV is still as a commuter, or a business delivery vehicle, where the wheels return home every evening, or travel back and forth between known locations with private infrastructure you can charge from overnight. Three to five years things should be quite different. I expect this to progress like gas stations did from the 60's to today only faster. Gulf card, Esso card, Sinclair card, Texaco card, .... Then get rebates, and a set of tumblers with a fill up of 10 gallons! Now its shove your favorite charge card in the reader, we want your money.
There will never be as many charging stations as filling stations, because you CAN charge at home or at a destination where you might park for a few hours. Expect the charging station paradigm to shift, to a set of charging stations, and a coffee/food court rest area approach. Like a Flying J truck stop for charging. I'm actually a little surprised there are not more of these 'Travel Centers' putting in charging infrastructure, but I do think it's just a matter of (a relatively short) time before someone figures out an optimal retailing scenario for charging.
"Coffee & Watts Charging centers, free coffee and bagel if you fill up here".
"Sonic Drive in and Charge, stay in your car, we will plug you in and bring you food"
My SO and I had to go to Birmingham Sunday. We tried to put a brief L2 charge on the car but the J1772 was broken.
The only operational CCS-1 charger is listed at the Mercedes Service Center but it wasn't clear if there is 24x7 access. At just over 60 kW, it is fast enough for our 50 kW limited BMW i3-REx. In contrast, there are two SuperChargers and two near by with one potentially 'on the way.'
Bob Wilson
The only operational CCS-1 charger is listed at the Mercedes Service Center but it wasn't clear if there is 24x7 access. At just over 60 kW, it is fast enough for our 50 kW limited BMW i3-REx. In contrast, there are two SuperChargers and two near by with one potentially 'on the way.'
Bob Wilson
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Obviously, this is true for metro areas. BUT you will need at least as many charge points as there are gas stations on rural interstate highways where the businesses serve essentially 100% travelers. Not liking that have coffee and lunch idea whilst charging. I guess it is better than twiddling one's thumbs but when I am on the road I like to gas and go and keep rolling. New battery technology may get us there... but will there ever be sufficient charge points in these locations such that we don't have to wait for one if and when everyone is driving a BEV? We'll see.
EV adoption is following the classical "S" curve so I would expect CCS-1 to follow a similar adoption. In contrast, Tesla SuperChargers appear to be more of a density function following sales.
The flaw in CCS-1 chargers is the providers are independent of the CCS-1 vehicles. Disconnected, they have no way to match demand. But if the dealers would install 24x7 accessible CCS-1 chargers, the problem would be soon solved.
Bob Wilson
I don't see the fast chargers being independent of the vehicle mfgs as a flaw. There is simply no way every brand can have their own charging network like Tesla. The charging points must be universal and independent, like gas stations, IMO. Otherwise, this will never work out. I have an issue with the entire notion of charging "networks". That way will lead to captive customers, limited choices in many or most locations, and higher costs.
Bruce M.
Well-Known Member
No one has ever expected gas stations to be connected to automakers. There's no reason charging stations need to be. But now that I live in a place where the public charging infrastructure is sparse and Level 3 nearly nonexistent, it's really imperative that this get moving faster, particularly on major travel routes. Simply seeing that chargers are available will make people less reluctant to purchase EVs.
Agree. One positive sign was that one of the hotels I stayed at on my recent road trip had some chargers... a couple of Teslas and a couple others. Topping up overnight would be great but then I thought what about the other 3 times I would have needed to charge that day had I been driving an EV? I wasn't really looking but I don't recall seeing any EV chargers at those gas stops.
And as for chargers being connected to the vehicle mfgs... or otherwise being some sort of proprietary network... I see that as a big problem. Unfortunately that is where this seems to be heading here in "subscription nation". Middlemen get rich and soak us all. Hopefully this can be headed off somehow so it doesn't become the dominant charging model.
And as for chargers being connected to the vehicle mfgs... or otherwise being some sort of proprietary network... I see that as a big problem. Unfortunately that is where this seems to be heading here in "subscription nation". Middlemen get rich and soak us all. Hopefully this can be headed off somehow so it doesn't become the dominant charging model.
Start with PlugShare, a free account. You can set the filter to whatever plug your car uses and it even has a trip planner. Yes, there are others but I started with PlugShare and it has worked for me and both our BMW i3-REx and Tesla Model 3:
- free motel charging - make $3.50 / 100 miles to $3.00
- fast DC charging - easy with SuperCharger but spotty with CCS-1 in Dixie
- L2 charging - Plugshare lets us see what is working or not
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Esprit1st
Well-Known Member
You won't see them if you not looking. They are often hidden on the back side of buildings. So if you don't know it's there (search with an app) you won't find them. Sometimes they are even hard to find knowing they are there. Even DC chargers.
R P
Well-Known Member
I was in the interior the previous week, and found that pretty well all the hotels had free chargers. I took full advantage of that. Kind of nice charging to near full overnight, and then topping to 100% in the morning before you leave for your next trip leg. That now seems to be an expected amenity, like free wifi.
FrankinCarp
Well-Known Member
Here in Ontario, to provincial government canceled a cap and trade agreement with Quebec and California, cancelled solar and wind farm contracts, cancelled provincial subsidies for EVs and PHEVs and literally ripped out charging stations at commuter rail stations. You would think the “Progessive” Conservative party were climate deniers or am I being cynical?
Now, with an election looming early June, our Premier has suddenly decided to throw some money at Canadian Tire and En Route stops on 400 series highways to stall Level 3 chargers. He has also thrown an undisclosed amount of money at Stellantis and LG to build a $5 billion battery plant in Windsor and some more for Honda to build PHEVs.
The cancellations when they formed government are directly responsible for Ontario’s EVs to stall at just 3% of sales. Quebec, next door, is at 10%. BC EV market share is even higher. Across Canada, only Saskatchewan has a smaller EV sales market - where that province has levied an annual surtax on EVs “because they don’t pay gasoline taxes that pay for roads.” (SK has less than 500 EVs in the entire province.)
QC and BC have the strongest penetration and distribution of high speed chargers. It is possible to drive across Canada in an EV. PetroCanada has charging stations across the country but you certainly have to plan carefully. (PlugShare, ChargeHub, ElectricCircuit and other applications can help with trip planning.)
Certainly, charging at home is the most cost effective source of power. (Net cost per kWh here is about $0.14 CAD)
Most of the (still fairly sparse) Level 3 chargers right now range from about $17.00 to $25.00 per hour (50kW). There are lots of “free” L2 chargers around in bigger towns and cities but they are slow.
I do think as the market share for EVs grows, we will see a dramatic increase in the number of charging locations.
I expect that by 2030, EV charging locations will be as ubiquitous as handicap and maternity parking spaces.
Mike Wazowski [emoji1063][emoji1063][emoji1063]
[emoji4][emoji4] & [emoji23][emoji23] more [emoji298]️[emoji298]️[emoji298]️ than [emoji33] [emoji33] & [emoji22][emoji22]
Now, with an election looming early June, our Premier has suddenly decided to throw some money at Canadian Tire and En Route stops on 400 series highways to stall Level 3 chargers. He has also thrown an undisclosed amount of money at Stellantis and LG to build a $5 billion battery plant in Windsor and some more for Honda to build PHEVs.
The cancellations when they formed government are directly responsible for Ontario’s EVs to stall at just 3% of sales. Quebec, next door, is at 10%. BC EV market share is even higher. Across Canada, only Saskatchewan has a smaller EV sales market - where that province has levied an annual surtax on EVs “because they don’t pay gasoline taxes that pay for roads.” (SK has less than 500 EVs in the entire province.)
QC and BC have the strongest penetration and distribution of high speed chargers. It is possible to drive across Canada in an EV. PetroCanada has charging stations across the country but you certainly have to plan carefully. (PlugShare, ChargeHub, ElectricCircuit and other applications can help with trip planning.)
Certainly, charging at home is the most cost effective source of power. (Net cost per kWh here is about $0.14 CAD)
Most of the (still fairly sparse) Level 3 chargers right now range from about $17.00 to $25.00 per hour (50kW). There are lots of “free” L2 chargers around in bigger towns and cities but they are slow.
I do think as the market share for EVs grows, we will see a dramatic increase in the number of charging locations.
I expect that by 2030, EV charging locations will be as ubiquitous as handicap and maternity parking spaces.
Mike Wazowski [emoji1063][emoji1063][emoji1063]
[emoji4][emoji4] & [emoji23][emoji23] more [emoji298]️[emoji298]️[emoji298]️ than [emoji33] [emoji33] & [emoji22][emoji22]
teslarati97
Well-Known Member
Demand charges are one of those things that can severely hamper DC Fast charger network. I'd imagine that will be next for residential consumers with their EVs (or high peak loads).
- Free snack breakfast
- Free coffee
- Free WiFi
- Free ice
- Free extra towels
R P
Well-Known Member
It has to happen. I don't think the free charging overnight costs more than the free breakfasts. Which incidentally are getting better and better now that covid is over. When travelling, a nice hot breakfast keeps you going for a long time, and then snack later on the fruits and muffins you took to go.
And then there are all the vineyards in the Okanagan (hundreds), many of them have a free charger. But the wine tasting is not free.
And the lunch menu is not cheap either.
And then there are all the vineyards in the Okanagan (hundreds), many of them have a free charger. But the wine tasting is not free.
And the lunch menu is not cheap either.
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GetOffYourGas
Well-Known Member
It has to happen. I don't think the free charging overnight costs more than the free breakfasts. Which incidentally are getting better and better now that covid is over. When travelling, a nice hot breakfast keeps you going for a long time, and then snack later on the fruits and muffins you took to go.
And then there are all the vineyards in the Okanagan (hundreds), many of them have a free charger. But the wine tasting is not free.
But what happens as EV penetration increases? Will hotels have enough L2s for all guests? Will it be 2-4 spots, first come first serve? At that point it is nothing you can rely on so it might as well not be there. Maybe a pay model with incentive to move when done? I will be watching how this progresses.
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R P
Well-Known Member
Like I said the cost of a charge is minuscule to the wineries and hotels, compared to the other amenities, like free breakfasts. People today shop for those amenities, and free charging will become a major choice for EV customers.
L3 is another story, and that will need incentives. But as ICE business declines, traditional gas stations will have no choice but to convert, if they want continued traffic to support their convenience stores.
Dealers could install 24x7, fast DC chargers and keep the lights on.
Bob Wilson
Bob Wilson
teslarati97
Well-Known Member
That would be excellent! At least pricing would be more stable compared to the 300-400% supercharger price hikes for per minute rates.