All Electric Range?

I agree with above commentary it’s time to change how miles per charge are reported for any plug-in vehicle. The estimate methodology posted above would provide both a range and an average. So instead of just the average, miles per charge should be reported in a similar format to mpg. The first number in bold should be the calculated average, the second number should be the minimum found during the testing protocol, and the third number should be the maximum. @Dan Albrich nailed it when he noted the confusion and misunderstanding about EV mileage is so widespread and universal that there needs to be fundamental change in estimate reporting without losing the ability to compare among vehicles.

Who do we contact to make this happen?
 
Sandroad said:
I agree with above commentary it’s time to change how miles per charge are reported for any plug-in vehicle. The estimate methodology posted above would provide both a range and an average. So instead of just the average, miles per charge should be reported in a similar format to mpg. The first number in bold should be the calculated average, the second number should be the minimum found during the testing protocol, and the third number should be the maximum. @Dan Albrich nailed it when he noted the confusion and misunderstanding about EV mileage is so widespread and universal that there needs to be fundamental change in estimate reporting without losing the ability to compare among vehicles.

Who do we contact to make this happen?
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The EPA. You'll have to get them to abandon the current J1634 test procedures and develop a new series of tests (or provide them with an alternative).

Would you propose a different label for different "climate Zones"? Or would someone in San Diego see the same minimum range as someone in Buffalo?
Putting a zero mile minimum range on the Clarity PHEV is arguably reasonable in the latter, but way out of line for milder climates.

And I've never, ever seen a minimum, average and maximum mpg for a gas car.

What your complaints will most likely get is a new form that you will be required to sign during the purchase/lease acknowledging that you have been informed of, and completely understand, that the EPA range figure is to be used for comparison purposes only and is not a guarantee of actual range. You will also have to acknowledge that you have been informed of, and completely understand, that many factors will affect the range you achieve. Someone will have to spend a bunch of time and money producing a pamphlet (that is reviewed and approved by a panel of lawyers) detailing all the factors that can impact range, and you will be handed this while you are in F&I signing the rest of the papers.

BTW, if you want the minimum and maximum range figures from the J1634 tests on the Clarity PHEV, they are 61.442 (using 14.485 kWh to recharge) and 72.265 (using 14.601 kWh to recharge)
 
"And I've never, ever seen a minimum, average and maximum mpg for a gas car."
Gas cars don't have a lot of variance by temperature. There's a range, but it isn't 40 or more percent the way it is with winter vs. summer and any EV car.
I reject the idea that the gas cars and EV cars can or should be measured the same (if that's a contention). They're different.

I don't think we need to give up on better and more accurately describing performance of EVs. For example, my Clarity never under any conditions even brand new ever got 61 EV miles which makes that J1634 test meaningless. Mine has never done 50 miles, and never will. Gotta come up with something better.

I think if a gas car buyer was promised 32mpg, and actually got 19.2 mpg in the winter, there would be law suits.

So in a nutshell, the current method doesn't adequately describe what 50% of the users will actually see. Perhaps they could do something based on dead of winter North Dakota vs. ideal climate conditions (maybe Los Angeles). Here's your North Dakota number, and here's your LA number :)
(Then let the buyer figure out which they are closer to)
 
It doesn't matter what the label says. Someone is going to get less and complain. Leaving it to them to figure out what they will actually get is no different than where we are today. Doesn't take much effort to learn that EV range is greatly impacted by temperature. Minimum EV range is always 0. They just won't work at all if it gets cold enough. IIRC, Honda says -22F?
 
Well, I guess big picture, Clarity is a great car. I am beyond pleased with my purchase.

In my case, I had zero interest in electric cars before buying. I also didn't realize the car was primarily an EV.

I thought I was buying a gutless economy car with small engine in part for environmental benefit, but mostly for gas-cost savings.

I got something much better than expected. But no, EV research, or even realizing I was buying something that was more EV than gas wasn't in my mind at that time. I'm delighted with the outcome. Call me a convert.
 
Dan Albrich said:
I got something much better than expected. But no, EV research, or even realizing I was buying something that was more EV than gas wasn't in my mind at that time. I'm delighted with the outcome.
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That’s the beauty of the car. It can be an EV or a Hybrid ICE. There’s no significant impact on HV range in cold weather and no mandatory charging delays. Heck, it can even charge its own batteries.

Did I mention that dealer, federal and state incentives reduced MSRP by 40%?
 
Dan Albrich said:
"And I've never, ever seen a minimum, average and maximum mpg for a gas car."
Gas cars don't have a lot of variance by temperature. There's a range, but it isn't 40 or more percent the way it is with winter vs. summer and any EV car.
Click to expand...

I have definitely seen a 40% variation in the fuel economy of my gas cars in the summer vs the dead of winter when we are at -25 deg C.

But you are correct that the impact of the variation in a gas car is much easier to deal with ... a 5 min trip to the gas station vs many hours of charging!
 
Landshark said:
That’s the beauty of the car. It can be an EV or a Hybrid ICE. There’s no significant impact on HV range in cold weather and no mandatory charging delays. Heck, it can even charge its own batteries.

Did I mention that dealer, federal and state incentives reduced MSRP by 40%?
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In our relatively mild Michigan winter we've seen a drop of HV mpg from around 45 to around 35. We could easily see temps 30 degrees colder than what we have this winter.
 
I just got back from a 54-mile drive that I somehow completed in 35 degree weather without the ICE starting up. I pre-conditioned the Clarity while connected to my 240-Volt EVSE for 30 minutes before I left home. So it was warm and toasty inside when I got in. My guess-o-meter predicted 36 miles of EV driving would be possible but the longer I drove, the greater the disparity between the odometer and the guess-o-meter became. When the cabin finally cooled down, I resisted the urge to fire up the battery-powered toaster coils.

Most of my drive was at speeds of 35-55 mph--governed by my cruise control--on back roads. I never exceeded 55 mph. When I was nearing my home after driving 48 miles, the guess-o-meter indicated 4 EV miles remaining and I was too excited to stop (yes, easily excitable). So I kept driving at 20-25 mph around my neighborhood to see how far I could go before the ICE kicked in.

Usually, I have a hard time beating the guess-o-meter, but this time the conditions must have been just right. I rarely get 54 EV miles in 60-degree weather, so I'm amazed at today's results in 35-degree weather.

Unfortunately, my feet have yet to fully warm up. One of the sacrifices one must make for research. Today's ride was almost as exciting as the time I stretched my Honda Insight's 10.6-gallon tank to 855 miles. Unlike today's chilly drive, however, my personal-best Insight record occurred on multiple, consecutive 85-degree days with the windows rolled up and the air-conditioner turned off. And to think I used to get my kicks driving my CRX Si as fast as it would go. Times change.
 
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insightman said:
I just got back from a 54-mile drive that I somehow completed in 35 degree weather without the ICE starting up
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I think this is graphic demonstration that the primary cause of 'winter EV range degradation' is the use of the heater, and not the battery. I'm sure the battery is affected, but keep the heat off and wear your parka and you will get close to summer performance.
 
MrFixit said:
I think this is graphic demonstration that the primary cause of 'winter EV range degradation' is the use of the heater, and not the battery. I'm sure the battery is affected, but keep the heat off and wear your parka and you will get close to summer performance.
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I believe pre-conditioning to warm the cabin (and the battery by proximity) for 30 minutes might have helped, too.
 
Danks said:
In our relatively mild Michigan winter we've seen a drop of HV mpg from around 45 to around 35. We could easily see temps 30 degrees colder than what we have this winter.
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My “measurable” HV driving has been 3, 700 mile trips. One in warm/hot, ~70-100F temps, two in cool/cold, ~30-60F temps. In all cases actual mpg was ~36 at freeway speeds of mostly 70-80. The trip computer displayed ~40, which was inaccurate.

Perhaps at 65mph the car could get 42mpg on such a trip. My daily driving is ~90% EV with some occasional HV driving when the distance exceeds EV range.

Are your 45/35mpg results for similar routes and similars speeds, with the only difference being temperatures?
 
Yes. Only difference temperature. Our daily driving is essentially 100% EV. Once a month we drive across state and back - about 340 mile round trip. That trip is almost all freeway speed at 70. MPG is measured per gas purchase at the pump. I don't go by the computer display We saw similar summer 45 mpg on a trip to PA and back. Probably around a 50-50 mix of 70 mph freeway and 55 mph US highways. I tried to balance getting there and fuel economy.
 
You can buy Yatasuwater (Copyright owned by #The Gadgeteer) at most health food stores and specialty shops. Of little known fact is that if added to battery coolant loops it will extend range by almost 800% using it's patented "Instant HHO decomposition" and chemical energy infusion into cell separator material via non-thermodynamic osmosis. This process is being recently referred to as the closest thing to Cold Fusion since the invention of the "Mr. Fusion" trash recycling system. Note: Mr. Fusion is only available for purchase on Alibaba.
See here: https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/fusion-kit.html

Or if you are so inclined to make your own Yatasuwater (crazy to do lab work in your own home though), here is a machine: https://www.enagic.com/?c=product-sd501

* Disclaimer, all information presented is for entertainment purposes only, any semblance of scientific marketability is the result of my substituting my reality for yours... fabricobling molecular mystery water in your own home for EV range extension (https://www.hydrogen-generators-usa.com/HHO_Gas.html) is generally considered unwise and will void most warranties and life insurance policies!

Cheers,

Cash
 
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