Why all the EV hate?

Discussion in 'General' started by Timothy, Jan 29, 2019.

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  1. Timothy

    Timothy Active Member

    I was checking out a FaceBook post yesterday that was trying to get support for an NC EV license plate. I jumped into the comments to see if anyone talked about whether a PHEV was worthy of the plate. I never got that far. Nearly all the comments were folks stating how they hated EVs and EV owners. Now, this was not an EVs will save the world post. It was just about a license plate. And folks felt it was worth their time to vent their anger. I lost any interest in a custom plate (I didn't really have that much). I would not want to put a bulls-eye on our poor PHEV. I understand that EVs may not save the world. I know there is a carbon (and environmental) footprint to making the batteries. I understand a certain level of disagreement. But I honestly don't understand the hate.
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  3. TheMagster

    TheMagster Member

    My guess is that people generally don't understand subsidies, and they think that EVs (which are widely seen as luxury vehicles) are an example of the rich helping the rich (through subsidies). Many people don't realize how the oil and auto industries are subsidized as well. In NC there might also be sentiment that EVs are a threat to the local fossil fuel industries.

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  4. Timothy

    Timothy Active Member

    I don't believe NC has much of a fossil fuel industry. It did not seem like the hate was based on subsidies or anything that was particularly well thought out. A sample: "No tree hugger cars for me;" " I'd sooner shoot myself than ever own anything that isn't a full diesel or internal combustion engine;" "ask the people I know about EV it sucks;" "Maybe fire and Obama will help you;" "Just gonna give the diesel behind them a heads up to roll coal on them when they pass them." Well, you get the idea.

    And this was not even a post about EVs being better than ICE. In NC I think any group can get its own license plates if they get enough presales. There is a NASCAR plate (actually several I think). This was just a post trying to get folks to sign up for an EV plate. And almost all the comments were snark about EVs.
  5. TheMagster

    TheMagster Member

    Huh, you're right, North Carolina is mostly run on nuclear, which pairs well with EVs. It looks like the past decade has seen coal fired plants being shut down and replaced with a combination of natural gas, nuclear, and renewables. So perhaps there's resentment from folks who lost their jobs in the dying coal industry (and they equate coal with oil I guess?).

    I'm getting this info from the eia.gov analysis of North Carolina. That site is a great resource for anything energy related.

    Or maybe it is just idiots in big trucks afraid of change...who knows :)

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  6. davidtm

    davidtm Active Member

    EVs are new and different. Unfortunately, our current social climate encourages thoughtless reaction rather than refection.

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  8. Lowell_Greenberg

    Lowell_Greenberg Active Member

    It should come as no surprise to you that Trump's environmental policies- have resulted in this: https://apnews.com/e38e8c16b610439db2273b8b35b4bc58

    Yet, some of his supporters chose to flounder in ignorance and hatred on this issue- choosing to be willing victims.

    You are right EV cars are only a small part of the CHG solution and in truth Telsa is NOT saving life on this planet. But the technology moves in the right direction- but it is much easier to tear down than to build- ridicule than to create. Underling it all- fear and racial/class resentment.

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  9. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    This is BS its just part of the fossil fuel industry terror as business as usual. It like when that coal executive tried to impersonate Musk and got caught, same with sabotage at the Tesla plant and then the short fossil fuel industry trying to call this plant saboteur a whistle blower.
    Shooting at Waymo cars and cutting charger cords and trying to push flaming Teslas all more of the same BS.

    What needs to happen is the FBI needs to start looking into this and then publishing results in the federal registry. Imagine when NY and other states suing fossil fuel add this to type of stuff to their charges. Best thing to do with fossil fuel companies is liquidate their charters (defacto nationalization) and divest their share holders if you want to stop short of full nationalization then convert them into a public benefit corporation that can still be taxed (on percentage of revenues,) but bar fossil fuel from trade with the US that don't submit to this. If the fossil fuel companies try to fight back before a supreme court full of fossil fuel plants, pack the court.
  10. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Were these comments from people you know, or random strangers?

    Russian troll farms are, according to reports, increasing their activity on FaceBook and other social media, targeting controversial issues of all types, in a (sadly successful) attempt to increase divisiveness and anger among Americans, as well as citizens of other Western nations.

    There are a lot of EV haters among the extreme right wing; it goes along with their general attitude against "green" tech, against using taxpayer money to support green tech (including EVs), and of course there is a great deal of Big Oil money funding extreme right-wing propaganda mills; the so-called "think tanks". But I doubt all that much of the anti-EV posts to social media originates in such propaganda mills. It's the Russians who have hired vast armies of internet trolls to stir up controversy and divisiveness on every possible issue... even, perhaps, EVs vs. gasmobiles. Plus, with Russia's economy so dependent on selling fossil fuel, they have a monetary motive for targeting the EV revolution.

  11. 101101

    101101 Well-Known Member

    The Koch's hired a political attack ad firm to smear EVs and Tesla. That is known. And all the Pravdah can't just be Russia. The Fossil fuel industry is corruption that has spread to every country. Where is the anti-trust. This is a monopolist industry trying to prevent competition.
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  13. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Can you provide a URL or search string that reaches the 'FaceBook' posting?

    Bob Wilson
  14. Well, the current administration shows them how it's done. Bullying is apparently ok nowadays.

    I'm just wondering why they are not angry at red cars, or cars manufactured in China, or German beer. I'm sorry, it's all the same.

    Why not just live and let live. Why would I care what you drive? If you want to drive a diesel truck do so. I literally don't care.

    But those people just don't get it. I'd rather sit in my garage with an ev running, than an ice car. Wonder why?

    I wonder if they would sit in their garage with their diesel truck running ...

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  15. Timothy

    Timothy Active Member

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  16. so many people end up wasting time being vexed than thinking or proffering a solution, the introduction of ev is only a seed sown, its still growing so i see no reason why people shouldnt be hopeful that one day we would deal without battries,our technology so far has a long way to go since we are still revolving on old theories in physics to create things,many think evs future battery disposal may be another plastic scare to the sea and oceans but i still see no reason why the hate should be so much,i have my vissions as an innovator about new theories that need to be put into research,these theories maybe the future of evs,evs would prevail better its just a matter of time.
  17. Wow, I wonder if those people have ever read a newspaper. But most of them are older and the statement "I'll stick with what worked for me for decades" just describes perfectly their life style.

    They probably still smoke filter-less cigarettes because why would I care about the world after I'm gone?

    They think coal is the only way to produce power, they haven't even gotten the idea that most of the world already understands that nuclear is not a green power source.

    Luckily these undereducated people are a minority and the world will move on anyways.

    (Note: I am exaggerating here with my statements about these people!)

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  18. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    Back after a hiatus. EV's, among some people, are considered as something that the California liberals trying to push their agenda on to others, especially when you have a whole slew of politicians deriding climate change and questioning the basic validity of it. So if you do not believe in climate change, you would not want to subsidize these rich people who want to feel good. The price of SUVs and trucks have started going through the roof, and people who drive them would rather have subsidies on those trucks or may be on ethanol, rather than EV's. Remember, even the corn lobby has an interest in ICE's and EV's in a way interfere with their way of life (May be the corn lobby will train their sights on Bud Light rather EVs for the next few months ;)). Not saying it is right or wrong,
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  19. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Welcome back. Here are the edits:

    EV's, among some people, are considered as something that the California liberals
    fresh air breathers trying to push share their agenda on to others CARB standard states, especially when you have a whole slew of Republican Party politicians deriding climate change and questioning denying the basic science validity of it.

    So if you do not believe in climate change
    empirical science, you would not want to subsidize these rich air breathing people who want to feel good about a great price on a clean air vehicle. The price of SUVs and trucks have started going through the roof because of customer demand, and people who drive them would rather have subsidies on those trucks or may be on ethanol, rather than EV's like everyone wants a cheaper ride. Raise the top tax rate to 40% and there is the money for cheaper rides. Socialize USA car makers and the problem is solved.

    Remember, even the corn lobby has an interest in ICE's and EV's in a way interfere with their way of life (May be the corn lobby will train their sights on Bud Light rather EVs for the next few months ;)). Not saying it is right or wrong,
    They have other distractions:

    After 15 years of driving Prius and two plug-in hybrids ... in Alabama ... I just like having a cheap ride. My EV miles are ~$0.025/mile, half the ~$0.05-0.06 of gas miles in the same cars. But I've been driving low cost per mile cars and tracking their performance since my 1966 VW MicroBus. I carried around a 'blue book' to record my MPG and when it dipped, I knew it was time for oil change, valve backlash, and plug cleaning (back in the days of leaded gas.)

    Personally, I smirk at inefficient cars driven by Republicans because that means they are burning up their money instead of sending it to Republican politicians. The sooner they burn it all up, the better. Meanwhile, I cherish waiting for a red light to turn green so I can shame them with the instant torque and quiet motor. If I can get them to mash their accelerator too, it makes my day. But I have to hold off on the accelerator so they think they have a chance and mash their 'wasting gas money' pedal harder.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2019
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  20. Lowell_Greenberg

    Lowell_Greenberg Active Member

    Electric cars are not the solution to climate change. But right wing politicians whose souls are bought by God knows what- and their legions of scared and confused followers are NOT helping.

    However maybe they are right in this respect- perhaps owing electric cars does make a small but to them sinister statement- your terra firma is changing- your way of life is slipping through your hands- and radical change will be the only hope of survival- and curtailing of personal freedoms in lieu of collective sanity- a necessity in a world where each day is a struggle for climate survival. And failing to see the threat now- like a ship of fools- they invite their own undoing.

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  21. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Tesla cars have upset the performance car market. They are also cheaper to operate. Making wimp EVs just don’t sell well.

    Bob Wilson
  22. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    Electric cars are not the only solution for climate change, it is a part of the solution. This is where we need to be clear. If the total amount of green house gases emitted can be reduced, it will help climate change and EVs can help with that, but EVs alone will not solve the problem. The key is smart reduction in both the production and consumption of energy, Including electricity. That can be achieved by increasing the energy efficiency in appliances and devices we use (and EVs are more efficient than ICEs in that respect), develop alternate sources of energy production with less emphasis on fossil fuels, further push reuse/recycling etc. You have to solve the global warming issue on multiple fronts and if a person does not believe in global warming, they will support any of the initiatives. Elon Musk to give his credit, has recognized that. So while he is working on the consumption angle (reduction of emissions by switching to EVs), he also is working on the production angle (solar city). His Boring company wants to increase the use of mass transportation which is more efficient than individual transportation.

    Further, the opposition to EVs come from many different angles, and I classify them in three categories and some people can be in more than one category

    1. Producers and distributors of fossil fuels and the equipment that use or generate fossil fuels and all those who support these activities. I use this is an expansive sense so it includes the oil companies, the oilfield support companies, ICE manufacturers, coal producers, the corn lobby. It may include employees and families of such companies and even may include the employees of associates and the support system, e.g. the sandwich shop that is patronized by the employees of say, an oil refinery. These companies and people have a direct economic impact if there is shift away.
    2. Consumers of fossil fuels who believe that the alternative will be costlier, not as effective and will have a direct and indirect economic impact on them. For example, if a old coal fired power plant is to be shut down and replaced by a newer solar or gas fired plant, there is a capital investment that will have to happen and the power company may want to raise prices now for all customers, even though there may be savings later. on Again, not going into the question whether the raise in cost justified and reasonable, there could be an impact on costs to customers and hence the protest.
    3. The skeptics, who do not believe in what the government tells them or are skeptical of what they believe the elites are telling them or have strong beliefs and values that come from their cultural identify. If you believe, for whatever reason, that the government is not truthful about your rights, you will not believe them on climate change.

    There is an overlap between the groups and if you are able to unify these three groups together and convince them that their livelihood and/or their way of life is under threat, you have a very potent and powerful voting bloc that will push back against the rest. If I am politician, this may be the group I want to target as long as I can get some other voices to support me. If polls are to be believed, this is a vocal minority. And history has shown time and time again, that a vocal minority can prevail over a silent majority.

    The answer is both education and market forces. There needs to be more effective ways of getting the message out on climate change. Second is a market demand for say EVs. Tesla has shown that their is a market for EV's and is large. As more manufacturers get into it, the market will actually expand and more people will change allegiances. For example, if there is more EV assembly plants, there are more producers and distributors of EV's who will speak against forces allayed against them. A great example of this was personal computing devices in the early 80s. The Macintosh established there was a market for a good product (compared to Commodore and Atari). IBM got into the market, but in a crucial mistake for IBM, they allowed Microsoft to sell the Operating system to the likes of Compaq and Dell and hundred others. The rest is history.

    So, the minds of those against EV's is not going to change in a day. It is a combination of factors that will do it. Once a critical mass is achieved, the voice of the flamethrowers and demagogues will start to diminish. But today, the combined effect of the three groups above, is pretty potent, especially as they have been united to a large extent.
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  23. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Well-Known Member

    Also, EVs are more closely linked with autonomous driving than ICE's, even though the technology can be used on both types of vehicles. Tesla is quite about open about promoting self driving vehicles including trucks, which may put many truckers out of a job (even though there is shortage of drivers today, some drivers on the road feel that their job may not be there in a few years). This again goes to the class of people who believe their livelihood and/or way of life is threatened and hence block Tesla charging stations. So while they are consumers of fossil products, a major portion of their fear comes from other technologies, that in their minds is intractably linked, with EV technology.

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