Official Jaguar I-Pace educational videos

Discussion in 'I-Pace' started by Domenick, Aug 22, 2018.

  1. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Tesla is the market leader and will continue to be one for the foreseeable future. The question is who is number 2 (Nissan claims Leaf sells more cars worldwide but they are not serious contenders in the US). Now if Jaguar can sell about 25000 cars or more, they are at least contenders in the high end market, they may be number 2. However if they sell only say 5000 cars a year, it may not take much for others to have a large market share in the same segment. Jagur has an order of 20000 cars from Wyamo (but that is over a period of time). That is an advantage right there as they might be able to provide say 5000 on a contracted sale. So 20,000 to 25,000 cars in the first year is not that much of a stretch, if they can manufacture it.
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  2. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Agreed that Tesla has the most experience in this area. However, there is a potential to leapfrog, especially if you have good suppliers. For LG Chem can provide them with the state of the art batteries, so they have do not have deal with a lot of the initial issues that Tesla had. Jaguar can for example tear down a Tesla and figure out how or why somethings were done by Tesla. So the lead time to get on par with competition is much shorter than before. There are ways to move faster along the learning curve. So it will not take 5 generations to get the Tesla level of maturity, if the competitor is really interested. GM for example has showed no interest in actually capturing the market. If they had wanted, they could have done it.
     
  3. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    But Tesla does not know how to design and engineer an optimized body, interior, and chassis, and has blown the production system big time... Model 3 is their 101, Model S, and X chassis was designed by a company in Detroit, actually the same ones working for Bollinger. Tesla never did the chassis durability testing, therefore never found the weak points in their structure, until production started.
     
  4. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member


    OK, you are all over the place... You need to work on your English, and grammar, as your sentences are so broken I have a hard time figuring out what you are trying to say. You are off base, and missing lots of things. On the I-Pace Jaguar is right on their schedule and have been building cars for a few months. These cars are coming out with top of the line quality as has been said by every test driver who have been near them Including Steven from InsideEVs.

    Jaguar had a few surprises, first the demand for the First Edition and HSE models exceeded their expectation, as a result their headlight manufacturer that was opening a new factory was not prepared to deliver enough sets of the premium matrix lights (a feature no Tesla has). Second, was the tax law changes in the Netherlands which they expect to be a huge I-Pace market. Third Bosch who had been Jaguars contractor in charge on infotainments design and integration dropped the ball on the Range Rover Velar, the same system that Jaguar planned for the I-Pace. Jaguar fired Bosch in March 2018 and hired Blackberry to fix the mess.

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...ds-jaguar-to-its-roster-of-automaker-partners

    None of Jaguars problems have been manufacturing hell, actually the factory has been quite smooth, they just had to wait for the supply chain to fully prepare, that is resolved now. Jaguar then decided to reshuffle all delivery plans and priorities the Netherlands with 3500 more I-Paces then were first planed for 2018. I totally understand this decision, the tax credit is equal to 1/5 the cost of the car, if the customers lose that they are not going to wait around for Jaguar, in the USA however, some customers who get bumped will be upset, but most will wait. Jaguar took a calculated risk... I understand that too...

    Now, Tesla's business is totally different then Jaguar, as a small Niche manufacturer Jaguar cannot compete with Tesla on price, but they can compete on driving feel, interior, quality, and style. They did this by setting up the I-Pace business model completely different then Tesla, instead of building out all the manufacturing, and vertically integrating, they subcontracted all the major components including assembly and let others share the risk. Jaguar knows their price that LG charges for the Battery, and they know the price Magna Steyr charges them to manufacture the car. Knowing those costs they set their prices at a level that they can pay their contractors and still make a profit selling the car around the world. Its simple, and not the first low production car that can make a profit, without massive factory investments. A few other versions of cars that are low production and highly profitable, are the Chevy Corvette, the Mercedes G wagon (also manufactured by Magna Steyr) BMW Z4, and Toyota Supra (same chassis, and also manufactured by Magna Steyr) and there are others vehicle lines out there and other contract manufacturers besides Magna Steyr. Magna Steyr has now signed a huge contract with BAIC in China, and is in the process of refitting 2 factories in China to convert to their build system

    https://www.magna.com/company/newsr...mium-electric-vehicles-for-customers-in-china

    People have said Magna is the Foxconn of EV's...

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...-an-automotive-foxconn-in-china-idUSKBN1KD1BW

    So as fo your worries about the I-Pace and production hell, spare me... I have weekly satellite photos that show I-Paces moving out of Magna Steyr every week...

    As for Jaguars finance problems, that is a real issue... Jaguar is not a stable company financially. I would buy the car, but never the TATA stock. That being said, that is not the problem with I-pace deliveries, Jaguar like most OEM's delivers the cars to a dealer, and carries paper on them for 30 days, if the dealer has not sold the car in 30 days, the dealer takes over financing the inventory. GM, Toyota, and most others operate the same way. Looking at TATA's credit report compared to Tesla's is really something. Tesla has terrible credit rating. Tata is just bad.. GM is ok... Toyota fantastic...

    Anyway, if you think Magna and Jaguar are experiencing anything like Tesla did on Model 3, NOPE... Both companies are smart... if there is a problem, stop production, and fix it... Tesla tried to push through the problems, and just cost the shareholders a lot of losses. But actually Tesla's biggest problem was when they told investors they were starting mass production, the assembly line was still not built, and the stamping press work was still being done at their machine supplier Thai Summit in Michigan, and parts trucked to Fremont. Do not believe me , search for "Model 3 production fraud", and read the investor lawsuit cases for yourself. Nothing going on like that at Magna...
     
  5. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    OMG Bob, are you saying that because a ferrari gets worse gas milage then a prius, it is less advanced? Gen 1? Stay off the dope...
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    Let's start with measuring the Tesla lead:
    Tesla owns and operates their own battery factory which means they are not subject to supplier priorities. Furthermore, Tesla is using a unique chemistry, Lithium Nickel Cobalt Aluminium Oxide (NCA), and mechanically stronger, 2170.

    In contrast, i-Pace is dependent on LG Chem who has their own priorities. The battery chemistry, Lithium Nickel Manganese Cobalt Oxide (NMC) has a higher ratio of cobalt, twice the Tesla which is the most expensive element in LiON cells. The i-Pace pouch cells provide no mechanical strength which increases the weight of the battery housing.
    State of the Bolt/Volt art which is a generation behind Tesla. Worse, it led to Kia/Hyundai producing the most likely i-Pace competition, Ioniq and Niro EV.
    [​IMG]
    Like GM's Bolt/Volt, the control electronics are not integral to the pack assembly but external units. This means connectors and snake-like cables the Model 3 avoids. Tesla simplified their design reducing the number of parts because they have vertical integration. In effect, Jaguar and everyone else is still a generation behind. A peer of the Tesla Model S/X generation. Only Tesla did a clean-sheet design for the Model 3 and optimized for EV operation and production.

    I appreciate that Jaguar has made a credible EV that is an EU product and wish them well. So too has Land Rover. They have lots of legacy dials, switches, and knobs so like legacy gas/diesels. All are conveniently located behind and around the steering wheel tunnel. The flip-phone of car cabin technology like the ancestor:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  7. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    Tesla is the market leader, they built a BEV from ground up, not retrofitted BEV technology on an existing technology. They are ahead of everyone else as far as product technology is concerned. They are vertically integrated, which has advantages. I do not think that there is a competitor who can take the number 1 spot from Tesla today. We can argue on who the distant second is. The question is who is best positioned to be a legitimate competitor. It is not that GM, Nissan, Hyundai, Jaguar, Audi etc. have no underlying strengths that can use to compete in the BEV market. It is the question of who has the leadership commitment to take on Tesla. This requires focus, investment and thinking of the long term. I do not know if that one is Jaguar.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member

    We see the same problem. The first EV maker who signs up for SuperCharger access or builds 24x7, CCS fast DC chargers at all of their dealers shows commitment. The rest are electric charging network leaches freeloaders.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    I do not have the knowledge you have. I have never made any bones about that. I was not even aware that there were satellite photos of I-Pace's coming off the production line. I was not aware till recently about Magna producing these cars. However, this is what I get from your post
    1) There are no production problems, the assembly line is well optimized.
    2) There are supply problems (headlights, entertainment etc.).
    3) If parts were available, more cars could easily be produced quickly
    4) There may be (again it is not clear from your post if there is or there is not) a financial constraint that is holding up production.
    5) Demand is higher than predicted and that cars initially planed to be sent to the other markets have instead been sent to Netherlands to due to some tax benefits.
    6) There are no major quality issues based on comments from experts and critics.

    You have been dismissive of the one website link that I had provided elsewhere, which said that Jaguar had production problems (not a parts supply problem). Again, I have no source or sources of information that would contradict anything you have said. Assuming everything you say is correct, can someone provide me the information I am looking for including:

    How many I-Paces have actually produced till today?
    How many have been delivered to end users (retail customers, fleet buyers etc.) worldwide?
    What is the reaction of the Average Joe who drives it for personal purposes (work, grocery store, restaurant, beach etc.), not the experts? I would be most interested in the Average Joe who has also driven a Tesla.
    Is there an estimated date when these cars will be available in the US?

    All the hype apart, I am looking to make a decision on which BEV to buy. Jaguar has still not sold me that they are the real deal.
     
  10. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    OK, so we want to talk around the circle again with mostly information that is rumor, and unverified by Jaguar or Magna Steyr? Why? If you are considering which EV to buy, you should first go out and test drive all of the models you are considering, and actually try to get as long of test drive as possible so that you can familiarize yourself with the car, and how it works in regular life. For me, I was not sure about the I-Pace until I went to the NY Autoshow and spent several hours going over every inch of it. I got to look at the cutaway car also to see how the chassis is built. It is robust to say the least, hence Jaguar allows it to be driven through 20" of water, or off roading, or take it to the track and run laps on the track. Tesla clearly in comparison voids the warranty for any of these uses. Here is a quote right out of Tesla's warranty;


    "This New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any vehicle damage or malfunction directly or indirectly caused by, due to or resulting from normal wear or deterioration, abuse, misuse, negligence, accident, improper maintenance, operation, storage or transport, including, but not limited to, any of the following:

    • Driving off-road, over uneven, rough, damaged or hazardous surfaces, including but not limited to, curbs, potholes, unfinished
    roads, debris, or other obstacles, or in competition, racing or autocross or for any other purposes for which the vehicle is not designed;"


    Jaguar designed the I-Pace for those purposes, so you are not so limited in your uses. Now that being said, if you bring the I-Pace back with a hole in the battery pack because you high centered it on a rock that would not be covered, as it is physical damage. If you burn up the drive unit running it on the race track that would be warranted in the Jaguar. In Portugal testing at the racetrack I-Paces were run lap after lap after lap in hot weather, and no sign of overheating or brake failure, and the car actually handles very well for a crossover.



    Now, I have not driven I-Pace, but have gone over the car design with a fine toothed comb, and feel it is very well thought out, and built. We also own a Range Rover (my wife's car) and have been very happy with it, it is smooth, very comfortable, reliable, and cute. From all the information I have gotten from the 50 or so road test reviews the I-pace will be even better from a ride and drive standpoint.

    Now, discussing Technology, do I care what tech is used in the battery? Nope, if they say it is 90KWh, and will last, and they guarantee that for 8 years (far longer then I will own it) I am good. Do I care where they located the BMS in the car? Nope, although the I-Pace BCM is part of the battery pack. Do I care about the chemistry of the battery cells? Nope, again as long as the battery functions as intended. Additionally, I do not check to see what brand of pistons are in my diesel pickup either, as long as it runs, I do not care. This is what I call petty stuff, and I simply do not care. A battery with 90KWh capacity is all I care about. Taking that line of thought further, GM Bolt and Hyundai cars use similar cells, and no degradation problems and unlike Tesla, there is no problem with charging to 100% daily.

    Now that we got through the stuff I do not care about, what do I care about? I care that the car is comfortable, well made, and loaded with features that I actually use. I care that the seats are 18 way adjustable, and with adjustable thigh support. I care that I can adjust heated seats and climate settings while driving, and without taking my eyes off the road (this is why I love knobs for certain functions, muscle memory, want to change the temp, you put your hand on the knob, and turn it gives you haptic feedback for each degree you adjust it. That to me is high tech. The argument about buttons vs touch will rage on forever, but remember I-Phone has always had a physical switch to silence the ringer, buttons for volume control, and a button to lock, Why? Possibly because it is quicker and more convenient then scrolling a menu to change those functions, and they can be changed without looking at the phone? I guess I-Phone is like a steam engine too... haha-Bob

    Other technologies I like, and find very useful daily in the I-Pace
    1) Blind spot warning in the side mirrors
    2) Color Head Up Display
    3) Apple Car Play, and Android Auto
    4) Automatic Gesture trunk
    5) Matrix Headlights
    6) Heated and Cooled seats
    7) 4 Zone Climate control so each passenger has control of their surrounding, and seat heater
    8) Blind spot warning for rear passengers with indicator next to the door handle
    9) Seat sensors for the HVAC, so the car does not heat or cool areas of the car without passengers

    I could go on on the Technologies, but these are pretty cool.

    On Bob's comment about charging networks, do you guys think its better for each manufacturer to build a proprietary system? I think CCS for everyone is the way to go, with Electrify America setting the way for the USA, if anything I think other automakers should invest into EA, as it will by far be the ultimate network in the USA. Many Tesla fans often post on here that EA is only going to spend $2B on charging, I wonder if they have any idea what a charging station costs to build, and how many stations can be built for 2B... The math is simple, the average 8 stall station costs 250K to build, so that means EA has enough budget for 8000 of those stations, while Tesla currently has 560 stations in the USA. Tesla also books the value of their entire supercharger network at <500M, and that is world wide, with EA we are just talking about the USA. Also at EA all of the customers pay, so the revenue from all that charging is going to create a massive stream for maintenance and growth. Lets not forget too that EA is building in some future proofing, by building 150-350KW stations, and up to 920V charging, Tesla's entire network is the old 400V, and between 72-120KW, More 72KW, then 120KW worldwide. Each EA station does offer 1 - 50KW chademo, for the Leaf and Tesla folks, all the rest are CCS 150-350KW.

    Another look at the technology, I just read that the I-Pace record set at Laguna Seca this week, matched Tesla Model S P100D best lap... Remember I-Pace is heavier, less aerodynamic, and with far less rated power. Tesla technology, huh? OK.... What is Tesla going to do when the performance version I-Pace SVR comes out next year?

    https://www.autoblog.com/2018/08/24/jaguar-i-pace-laguna-seca-record-ev-tesla/
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2018
  11. interestedinEV

    interestedinEV Active Member

    That is the question. I do not go to auto shows. I have no information other than what I read. And I still do not have an answer as to when when I can actually test drive it. Is ...Dec 2018, Jan 2019........? I do not live in LA or New York.
     
  12. David Green

    David Green Well-Known Member

    I am not sure the dealers will have cars for test-drives. I have heard that 50% of First Year I-Pace allocations are for CA dealers, so that would be the state with the highest chance of getting a test drive. My dealer here in Bellevue is going to get a static pre-production I-pace in September 2018 that will be on the showroom floor, but because it is a prototype car, they will not allow test drives. They had another prototype here earlier this month, that we got invited to a party to see, and play with, but no drives. Man, the sound system is awesome! It took Tesla a year after Model 3 was released to offer test drives, I think Jaguar will be much quicker... Hopefully you will find one soon...
     

Share This Page