Discussion in 'General' started by Smitty79, Sep 22, 2021.

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  1. Smitty79

    Smitty79 New Member

    I own a Tesla Model 3. I intend to buy another EV in the next few years. I look at everything that comes out that will compete with the Model Y or Cybertruck. I like Tesla. But I'm more an EV fan boy than a Tesla one.

    The two things that keep me coming back to Tesla are the potential for autonomy and the ability to road trip the car.

    I want to focus on efficiency in this thread. If I look at the available or near available, under $80k cars, I see Audi, VW, Ford, Volvo, maybe Nissan, Kia, Hyundai and Tesla. Other than the coming Ionic and EV6, if the cars have the same size battery as a Model 3/Y, the range is not as good. If the the range is competitive, the battery is larger so the charging will be slower.

    I understand that many car makers, particularly legacy companies, want to make cars that are more acceptable to mainstream car buyers. Many people don't want to use an iPad to control their cars. But why are the legacy manufacturers making box like cars with horrible drag coefficients. Big flat grills are killing the road trip ability of the ID 4 and Mach E.

    I do a drive to near Stockton CA from near Portland Oregon on a regular basis. In my M3 AWD, I spend about an hour charging on this trip. ABRP says that the longest range ID 4 and Mach E spend over 2 hours charging for the same trip. Some of this is charging infrastructure. But lots of it is terrible efficiency for this size car.

    BTW. I just finished a 5000 mile road trip, in my M3. I can't imagine doing this in a Mach E or ID 4.

    Why to so many manufacturers do this?
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber


    I typically drive ~700 miles in a day but have gone further. With two drivers, 1,000 miles per day is possible.

    Bob Wilson
  4. TonyInGA

    TonyInGA Member

  5. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Bought the car March 26, 2019:

    • 229 Wh/mi
      • 22.9 kWh/100 mi - EPA lists 25 kWh/100 mi
    • 4.37 mi/kWh
    Is that what you wanted?

    Bob Wilson
  6. papab

    papab Member

    Perhaps they are trying to make a car that buyers want. I would take a boxier more practical design over a sleek M3 or MY or MachE because I won't use it for long road trips. It will be used for local trips hauling 2 people to a trail head or a ski area less than 20 mi away. An occasional 250 mi road trip to the big city. If I can't put 2 bikes inside, they will go on the back and whatever nice aerodynamics the car has will be ruined anyway.
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  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    Sounds like a future pickup EV owner. Requirements are owner/mission specific.

    My preference is a trailer hitch and small trailer. When obtuse loads are needed, use the trailer. Otherwise, efficiency around town and cross country makes sense.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2021
  9. gooki

    gooki Active Member

    It's not just aerodynamics.

    Powertrain efficiency helps.

    As does Teslas use of big data. They know so much about their batteries because every Tesla is connected to the cloud, that they know they can safely use smaller reserves on the battery pack, and charge each cell to a higher level.

    Teslas choice of battery cell also helps. Pouch cell manufacturers recommend larger unused capacity to guarantee cycle life.

    Then there's the obsession for improving efficiency throughout the vehicle. From battery and cabin heating and cooling, more efficient inverters, weight reduction, etc.

    It all ads up:
    Aerodynamics 10%
    Powertrain 6%
    Useable batter capacity 10%
    The little extras 4%

    Being 30% more efficient allows Tesla to sell better cars for the same price as the competition. Or manufacture similar performing cars for a lower price.
  10. Smitty79

    Smitty79 New Member

    As dependent as EVs are on aerodynamics for efficiency, relative to gas cars, and given how dependent EV prices are on battery size, I would expect the new $40k+ price cars to put more effort into aerodynamics.
  11. I’m pretty impressed with my Kona Electric. Did a 2000 mile road trip with it and had no major issues aside from one mis-marked charging station and a confusing interface at another. My best run was 220 miles at interstate speed starting from 93% and running it down to about 12%.
    electriceddy and John Lumsden like this.
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  13. Agree. Think the good efficiency of our cars is laudable.
    electriceddy likes this.
  14. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber


    The reason I ask is 2021 and we're still seeing issues between our 2014 BMW i3-REx and Electrify America. The most recent was a month ago at the Athens Walmart, could not get a charge although we'd gotten one earlier this past summer. The earliest were in 2016 at the Manchester TN station when only 2 of 3 attempts worked after spending an hour with support on each attempt.

    Side comment, Autoline.TV reports that more EV shoppers are aware that the quality of the fast DC charging network is important. You don't buy just an EV but the charging network(s) too along with the EV charging speed. For example, our BMW i3-REx has a maximum charge rate of 50 kW that only occurs near the end when the pack voltage increases.

    Originally our 2019 Model 3 had a peak charge rate of 100 kW which for the existing 120 kW SuperChargers was just enough for cross country trips. Now the peak rate is 170 kW so the legacy 120 kW SuperChargers work as well as the newer 250 kW units. Regardless, the SuperCharger network is dense enough that we drive for 2-2.5 hours and charge for 20-30 minutes. The 100% SOC charge provides +3 hours of driving.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2021
  15. The charger that wasn’t marked properly was an EA station at a wayside in Ohio. The software routed me off the interstate to a small town about two miles away. If I would have used common sense I should have known that was wrong but I was just following the gps. When I say software I’m referring PlugShare and Google Maps, possibly Apple Maps too.

    I forget the brand of charging station that gave me trouble. It wasn’t one of the more common ones that I use on the east coast. When I got there I tried to pay by CC but that didn’t work. After I tried to download the app but couldn’t get that to work because I had to take the plug out of my car but it was stuck in the port. Turns out it just had to be forced out with a bit of finesse but I felt like I could have broke part of the charging plug or my car trying to remove. Fortunately the manager at the wayside showed me how to remove it. Finally a very friendly i3 driver came by and let me charge on his account only to find out that it was a free charger. As an aside during all this confusion I spoke with the help line that was labeled on the charging station. It was a third party help line that had zero access of actually resetting the machine. All and all a comedy of errors.

    I agree with you about a quality DC charging network. That’s why when my wife switches to an electric car I’m encouraging her to get a Tesla. The ubiquitousness and simplicity of the network is such a huge advantage. She is smart enough to figure out all the rfid’s and use software to find charging stations to map out a trip but why should she bother when a Tesla has all of that built in.

    For myself, I wanted a long range Model 3 but chose the Kona for other advantages the M3 simply couldn’t offer and I’m happy with that choice. The Kona Electric has a smaller battery pack but has near the range of a Model3 and it’s not even a ground up EV. It’s a remarkable engineering achievement whether planned or just some unintentional luck.
    electriceddy and bwilson4web like this.
  16. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber


    I added the 2021 Kona between our 2014 BMW i3-REx and 2019 Std Rng Plus Model 3:
    • BMW - max 50 kW, electric miles using Electrify American and EVgo at $24 was 4x the cost of premium gas, $6, between 120 mi, Huntsville and Nashville.
    • Tesla Model 3 - $4 SuperCharger cost between Huntsville and Nashville.
    Bob Wilson
    Clamps likes this.
  17. Over the 18 months I've had my Hyundai Kona it's averaged 4.6 mi/kwh
  18. This is something not mentioned often.

    The difference between cost of charging at Tesla Supercharger and the others such as ChargePoint, Electrify Canada, and Ivy network is $18 per hour. This is important if at your home no access to Level 2 charging.

    bwilson4web likes this.
  19. Smitty79

    Smitty79 New Member

    How do you drive the car? For long range interstate driving, that seems exceptionally efficient.
  20. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web Well-Known Member Subscriber

    One thing Tesla did was to avoid having a subcontractor profit burden on their SuperChargers. In contrast, the CCS-1 networks have expenses with profit costs on top. Tesla is selling a transportation service which means not only the EV but the charging network needed for cross country travel.

    BTW, I was concerned sponsorship by EA might lead to muting their technical problems. In the first month, that does not seem to be the case. Good and bad news is being shared ... no I'm not tempted to switch from my Tesla EV.
    Remember we're all single sample points in a larger pool of EV drivers. Note the data point but don't 'set hair on fire.' Happily, the EPA has started to support EV owner reports of EV mileage.

    Bob Wilson
    Last edited: Sep 25, 2021
  21. Bruce’s 4.6mi/kWh look very reasonable to me, similar to the 14.9KWh/100kms of my long term average.

    Sent from my iPhone using Inside EVs
  22. Efficiency isn't everything. People don't buy trucks or SUVs because they are efficient. And the cost of driving an EV is way less than an ICE vehicle. In my case, free. Have yet to pay for a charge in 2.5 years and 38K kms since I bought it. I could travel right across Canada without having to pay because of the range of my Kona, using the fast Petro Canada chargers (350 kw max). Can't do that in a Tesla without buying a $600 CAD Chademo adapter and then limited to 50 kw charging speed. The real game changer will be the Ioniq 5 that can charge to 80% in 18 min, which I believe so far is the fastest charging EV with its 800V system.

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