Compliance car and Honda execs don’t believe in plugs.

Discussion in 'Clarity' started by Wayne Wilson, Jan 13, 2020.

  1. Wayne Wilson

    Wayne Wilson Member

    I know the car is still the same one we bought, but this turn of events makes me fear that the farther out we get from now, the less the car will be valuable. If you are expecting an electric future, Honda dealers outside of CARB states won’t want to take a trade and basically you will have nothing to trade it in for anyway. I am closing in on 2 years and 25,000 miles and owning a car that can drive pure electric has been a revelation to me. I am ready to move up to a long range pure EV, but where is my path with Honda?
     
    AlanSqB likes this.
  2. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Just shop other brands that have what you want. Why should anyone without direct financial incentive have blind allegiance to one particular large corporation?
     
  3. Coastie68

    Coastie68 New Member

    I too was a newbie to electrics and have found after 55+ years of driving ICE cars and trucks that I like electrics a lot. I also am not happy with Honda's position. I have a reservation to buy a Ford Mustang Mach E and am looking at the Tesla Cybertruck also. It's a new day dawning and I am sorry that I probably won't be around to see it in full swing.
     
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  4. Atkinson

    Atkinson Active Member

    In December I saw multiple dealers with 2019 Bolt EV Premium's for $26K
    That's leather and Driver Confidence II, plus Infotainment packages.
    Not everyone's idea of a perfect car, but it has great range in a small hatch form factor.
    Something like $18K off original price.
    Probably all sold now, but there are deals.
     
  5. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Oh, let's not single out Honda for this head-in-the-sand attitude. It seems to be rather widespread among all auto makers in Japan. Toyota is pretty stubbornly resisting entry into the BEV field...except that they're now making and selling a BEV in China! The plan for the future recently unveiled by Toyota shows a shocking lack of uptake in BEVs over the next 5 years.

    And let's not single out Japanese auto makers, either.

    From Electrek: "BMW R&D Chief: ‘Most of the US does not need BEVs’"

    One can reasonably argue that today and in the short term that is true, but his remarks were in the context of the mid-term outlook for the future, 10-20 years from now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2020
  6. Honda and Toyota seem to be putting their eggs in the FCV (Hydrogen Fuel Cell) basket. Why I feel FCV tech is a better replacement for gas for cars and light trucks and (especially) diesel for trucking, the cost of creating a Hydrogen fueling infrastructure may be prohibitive in the US. Japan and South Korea and Europe may have a better shot with H2.

    In the US, BEV is the future for the now. BUT...there is still not much in the way of choice. Hyundai/Kia can not supply the US with the Kona/Niro/Soul EV in any kind of numbers. The Bolt does not excite me. The Mach e does and I will probably go that route when my Clarity comes off lease in 10/2021. VW should be selling the ID.4 in the US by then, too.
     
  7. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Active Member

    Well, couple thoughts. Like others definitely agree-- don't do brand loyalty, unless it makes sense. If Honda doesn't have a suitable offering, and another top tier provider does, yep that's an excellent reason to "jump ship" as in choosing some non-Honda brand. No knock on Honda, the Clarity is superior in my opinion for what it is and what is available at the moment.

    I think before you go full-BEV, I guess I'd ask a few questions (rhetorical, and just for your personal consideration if helpful to you):
    - Do you have a commute that's longer than say 30-40 miles?
    - Do you occassionally do long road trips? i.e. 1000 miles or more?
    - Do you get frustrated even thinking about waiting for your BEV car to charge?
    - Do you have another vehicle you intend to keep (including Clarity) for the long trips?

    In my case, I don't plan to own multiple cars for multiple purposes. I don't have the space and have no desire to buy insurance (or pay other necessary cost) for multiple cars. So I absolutely want one-car/vehicle fits all. My commute is 5 miles each way. I sometimes do 3000+ miles and think nothing of it (I enjoy driving). I hate even the thought of *ever, and I mean not even once* waiting for my freaking car to charge. I'd switch to full ICE before that. I do not have space or interest in keeping multiple vehicles.

    So in my case the PHEV is not an intermediary vehicle. It is an absolute perfect match for what I want. If I can avoid it, I will not buy any BEV in the foreseeable future. That is, until BEV's either include 5000+ miles of range, or recharge times that match or beat gas fill up time.

    So I do eventually plan to get another vehicle, and yep it will absolutely be a PHEV if at all possible. The PHEV to me is the destination, not a pit stop along the way. It really is the best of all worlds. And as you've maybe guessed by now, I do care about environmental concerns, but only to the point where the option is practical. And waiting even more than 20 minutes for any 'refill' is a complete non-starter for me (i.e. the multi thousand-mile trips, the stop time does matter). I love that my Clarity fills up at the pump in a few minutes total, and off I go.

    And of course to each their own. If for your criteria a BEV is the next step, all the power to you! (sorry for the bad pun). As for me. I'm already driving my dream-car.

    -Dan
     
  8. dana

    dana Member

    Coastie68 post: I too was a newbie to electrics and have found after 55+ years of driving ICE cars and trucks that I like electrics a lot. I also am not happy with Honda's position. I have a reservation to buy a Ford Mustang Mach E and am looking at the Tesla Cybertruck also. It's a new day dawning and I am sorry that I probably won't be around to see it in full swing.

    Couldn't agree more. Hopefully we'll both be around long enough to see lots of "new days dawning" even though we're not young. Currently, I have two Mach E reservations, RWD and AWD, as well as a deposit for a Cybertruck. Later this year, both of us will have to make a decision. Hopefully you will be happy with yours.
     
  9. Landshark

    Landshark Active Member

    This topic has been hashed over previously.

    Honda is playing by the rules and doing what is necessary to remain profitable. It isn’t the end of the world.

    If you disagree with their decision or they don’t manufacture a vehicle that suits your needs, but something else. There are plenty of choices.
     
  10. Pushmi-Pullyu

    Pushmi-Pullyu Well-Known Member

    Everyone has his/her own criteria for what's important when buying a car. But I think it's safe to think that very, very few people would refuse to consider buying a BEV merely because a PHEV or a gasmobile "charges" faster, when the charging times for BEVs come down to 300+ miles of range in 10 minutes, or faster. It seems extremely unlikely that BEVs will ever get ultra-fast-charging as fast as 2 minutes for 300+ miles, like a gasmobile. It would be crazy to spend the kind of money it would take for both chargers and EVs to be charged that fast... and for the money it would take to upgrade the electric grid to the level needed for an average EV ultrafast charger to charge them that fast.

    Usually, the only time you'll be fast charging is on a long trip, and when you stop on a long trip after several hours of driving, you're probably gonna need to visit the necessary room. So what would be the point of having your car charge in 2 minutes when it takes longer than that to go to the rest room and return?

    Furthermore, if you can charge 300 miles of range in 10 minutes, and if you start with a fully charged pack, that's 600 miles of range in a single day's driving with only a single stop. Now, I have heard stories (haven't we all?) from friends who say they can do 1000 miles, or more, in 24 hours by switching off drivers. But that is a very rare case indeed! Furthermore, even in such an extreme case, that would be only 3 charging sessions for up to 1200 miles.

    Seems to me insisting on a 2-minute ultra-fast charge time would be as pointless as a horse-and-buggy driver insisting "I'll never buy one of those newfangled motorcars until they'll eat grass to power them!"

    Now, all that said: I absolutely agree that there will be great resistance by a large segment of people to putting up with en-route charge times of 15 minutes or more. It's an interesting psychological trait in Americans that they are quite resistant to waiting more than 15 minutes for anything. (I have no doubt that's actually true; I've seen it happen.) I get a bit impatient when EV advocates assert "Nobody will mind waiting for 20 minutes for a charge." Hmmm... actually, most Americans (if not also most people living in first-world countries in general) mind waiting that long. For those who don't mind: You're the outlier, not the norm.
     
  11. Agzand

    Agzand Active Member

    What Honda said was just an opinion about future market development. In reality they are taking reservation for their first mass market BEV (Honda e). Batteries are becoming a commodity, so any manufacturer with a couple of generations of BEVs can jump on the bandwagon anytime. Honda has the Clarity and Honda e already. They can just enlarge Honda e by 50% and it becomes a long range BEV.
     
  12. MrFixit

    MrFixit Active Member

    Well, to put this in perspective, here is the 'best' at the moment...

    upload_2020-1-14_9-13-28.png

    With your 10 minute benchmark, you can currently get around 150 miles. Getting a full 300 miles takes more like an hour (it is very non-linear, I assume because of battery heating / management as the batteries near full charge). Note that Tesla tends to quote the 80% charge times because of this long charging 'tail'.

    Even if the battery were not the limiter, the best you can get from a V3 Supercharger (250 kW) is 1000 miles per hour charging, which would still require 18 minutes. So maybe a 500 kW 'V4?' Supercharger AND a major battery breakthrough would get you to the holy grail of 300 miles in 10 minutes?

    I am a technology optimist, and I'm sure this will happen, but...
    my guess would be it will be at least another 5-10 years, and maybe longer before it is commonplace.

    BTW - When charging at home, the typical modern house has 200 amp (48 kW) service. Maybe you could imagine a 100 amp (24 kW) charger. This could maybe get you 96 miles per hour of charge. Not too bad because at home, you aren't usually in as much of a hurry.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  13. ClarityBill

    ClarityBill Active Member

    That is great for California, but in the Northeast, we spend many months below 40F: Cold battery and using the heater is generally expected to cut all of the range numbers by 40%. In your 10-minute benchmark, that would give me 90 miles.
     
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  14. Landshark

    Landshark Active Member

    Are you buying the Mach e for its popular SUV capabilities? It interesting to note that the Ford Focus wagon has more ground clearance, more cargo capacity and more towing capacity. The latter is because the Mach e, for the US market will not be set up to tow or have a tow rating.

    That’s probably for the best. Actual towing tests with a Tesla Model X and an 1100 lb trailer covering 1000 miles in 4 days, resulted in ~1.5 miles per kWh. Approximately 24 hours were spent driving and roughly 14 hours were spent charging.

    I would imagine the prop truck from the low budget sci-fi movie would have similarly dismal results while dragging around a 5000 lb trailer or if called upon to do other truck-like duties.
     
  15. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

    Amen brutha. Overlooked so frequently, by so many EV enthusiasts and proponents, because of where so many of them live...

    And let's not forget that when it gets cold, the batteries can't accept charge as fast, which makes the problem a double-edged sword where you can't drive as far between charges, and then the charge also takes longer...

    This is an issue for most of the population of 35ish United States, and MANY other developed countries, located above the 37th parallel. And the farther north you are the worse it is. EVs with current battery technology suffer this substantial range decrease for a whopping 4 to 10 months of the year, depending on exact location. Charge speed and range are both HUGE hurdles for EV's to overcome before they can become truly widespread, not to mention the need for a likely regulated/reworked eMPG/eRange figures from the EPA or other organizations, so people can buy cars based on a realistic average range instead of a temperate range which some will rarely see, and how much the range of a given vehicle will vary based on geographical location. With gasoline it's easy...winter brings about a 10% to 15% drop in MPG as it gets cold for every vehicle, and fillups still take mere minutes so nobody really notices. But the 40%+ lost in winter for EV's, coupled with longer winter recharge times, causing yet more range reduction and range anxiety, and more time lost waiting for charges? It's just a problem the vast majority of the public will not accept. Most will just buy another ICE, myself included.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  16. Duxa

    Duxa New Member

    If EV future is not here yet, it will be in 20 years, for sure. Ton of countries have mandates to stop sales of ICE cars by 2040. Tesla showed that electrics can be great, and look even Sony is making a car now.

    As far as Clarity, I wouldnt worry about it, you can always resell it on the private market, probably for more than the dealer would have given you anyways. And even if in 10 or 15 years the battery is shot, it will be sufficient enough to run in hybrid mode and still give you 40+ MPG. Basically becoming an Ensight (I have a friend with a 2009 Ensight, battery is perfectly fine still in it).

    If you want pure electric, I think Model 3 or Model Y are your next step ups from Clarity. You can get a 2 wheel drive 230mile model for $35k. Tesla are leaders in battery tech, their batteries will cool/warm themselves while the car is parked and off. I do not think you lose anywhere even close to 40% range even in freezing cold.

    And also keep in mind, ICE vehicle will also have a significant MPG drop with snow tires and icy roads.

    Somewhat relevant video of Model 3 being frozen solid -
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2020
  17. craze1cars

    craze1cars Well-Known Member

  18. BeMurda

    BeMurda Member

    Well, that's not even close to true...

    It's -22F (-30C) here in Canada today. People with Teslas are experiencing 60% range loss, there are many discussions. Couple that with many roads where the typical driving speed is equivalent to 75mph and range is pathetic. Given nobody wants RWD up here because of the huge amounts of snow, the Tesla with AWD is also $30k more expensive.
     
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  19. dana

    dana Member

    Landshark asked: Are you buying the Mach e for its popular SUV capabilities?

    I currently have two Mach E reservations but that doesn't necessarily mean I will buy one. Reservations were made the day after Ford pulled the wraps off the Mach E and before all specifications were known. No decision needs to be made until this summer.

    It's great we have this forum so we can all share facts and opinions. It's also great we all have so many vehicles to choose from. ICE, hybrid, PHEV, BEV, FCV. You get to make the choice that makes the most sense for you and will hopefully put a smile on your face every time you drive it.
     
  20. Dan Albrich

    Dan Albrich Active Member

    One last comment regarding BEV vs PHEV. My Clarity is used mostly for around town and commuting so I probably typically go 2 months between gas fill ups. This means my PHEV really is used like a pure EV most of the time, and subsequently dramatically lower fuel cost (and environmental cost). In fact if I had a 300 mile BEV, I'd likely just charge less often. I simply don't often have a need for that much range, and ironically the few times a year that I do, I use way more than 300. My last car trip was over 2000 miles (Eugene to Tucson and back) and when you do say 10+ hours of driving a day (and yep I do), waiting for a charge isn't desirable.

    Separately and maybe related (and yes this is just me), I don't like Elon Musk and have zero interest in owning a Tesla. So not sure if there are non-Tesla super-chargers, but I am not buying a Tesla any time soon, (and likely never). I have a strong negative reaction to all arrogant people. I'll spend my money elsewhere.
     
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