Charging Practices.

[Ed V]

So after perusing and searching this forum I have decided that to not let the battery get below 30 % and not higher than 80% on a continuous basis. If I take a road trip I will charge higher on the initial charge. My electrician will be out Sunday to upgrade my service from 100 amps( old house) to 200 amps. and I have my Chargepoint Flex back ordered from PSEG. They only sell the NEMA 6-50 model but $280 it is a deal. Any holes in this plan ?

 

[Wildeyed]

I guess this kind of battery baloney won't die as long as the internet is alive. It's like people who insist they need to "warm up" their ICE cars. There's no changing their minds and there's no changing this myth either. Sigh.

 

[Danhen]

Not sure why the need to insult someone on this, but I'm under the impression what Ed is thinking is not off base. Doesn't Tesla suggest something similar? Or perhaps our batteries are different and that does not apply here? I apologize in advance for my potential ignorance on this, but I have the same curiosity as Ed does.

 

[Wildeyed]

Not sure why the need to insult someone on this, but I'm under the impression what Ed is thinking is not off base. Doesn't Tesla suggest something similar? Or perhaps our batteries are different and that does not apply here? I apologize in advance for my potential ignorance on this, but I have the same curiosity as Ed does.

No insult intended. It's not your baloney! There's just not any evidence that a modern battery with extensive BMS software and temperature control needs that kind of care at all. As far as I can tell it's based on the behaviour of lIon batteries in consumer electronics - old consumer electronics. I just have never understood why people would choose to hobble a $50,000 car straight out of the gate in hopes of...what? A slightly extended lifespan... maybe? A very dubious maybe. I guess I'm just bothered by how prevalent the 2O%/80% ethos is in EV forums. New users will never widely adopt EVs if they are bombarded right of the hop with how limited/delicate the cars are.

 

[Danhen]

But doesn't Tesla specifically say 20-80 is best when feasible? Or is that just a group of Tesla owners saying that?

 

[Wildeyed]

But doesn't Tesla specifically say 20-80 is best when feasible? Or is that just a group of Tesla owners saying that?

I don't frequent any Tesla sites but, yes, I've heard that too. But, again, is it true? I mean, Tesla's greatest claim to fame is its supercharger network. Are you going to tell me that supercharging from 20/80 is the same as trickle charging? Is the chemistry of Tesla cells the same as others? Hyundai's owner's manual (2019 at least) says to keep the car plugged in and charge to 100%. Are they wrong about their own batteries? And even if it was true at one time, does it really make sense that after a decade of battery advances in research and manufacturing that it's still true? It strikes me as a wives' tale that may have been born of past truths but is mostly just a story that keeps getting promulgated without any critical scrutiny. And, again, I think it's ultimately harmful to the "cause".

 

[electriceddy]

So after perusing and searching this forum I have decided that to not let the battery get below 30 % and not higher than 80% on a continuous basis. If I take a road trip I will charge higher on the initial charge. My electrician will be out Sunday to upgrade my service from 100 amps( old house) to 200 amps. and I have my Chargepoint Flex back ordered from PSEG. They only sell the NEMA 6-50 model but $280 it is a deal. Any holes in this plan ?

Only that the electrician has to work on a Sunday

 

[markintosh13]

But doesn't Tesla specifically say 20-80 is best when feasible? Or is that just a group of Tesla owners saying that?

From the Tesla site charging FAQ:

What's a best practice for charging a Tesla at home?
We recommend plugging in every evening to top off the battery.

What percentage should I charge the battery to?
For regular use, we recommend keeping your car set within the 'Daily' range bracket, up to approximately 90%. Charging up to 100% is best saved for when you are preparing for a longer trip. You can adjust how full the battery charges from the charge settings menu.

Should I wait for the battery to fully deplete before charging?
Tesla uses lithium ion batteries so there is no memory effect, this means there is no need to deplete the battery before charging. We recommend plugging in as often as possible.​

 

[Ginginova]

But doesn't Tesla specifically say 20-80 is best when feasible? Or is that just a group of Tesla owners saying that?

Their battery guru Jeff Dahn was recommending charging up to 70% SOC and beyond that point only when really needed for shorter amount of time just before road trip.
This recommendation maximises battery life and is valid recommendation for most LiXX based battery chemistries.

That does not mean, that charging beyond 70% would make your battery explode, it is just a recommendation for maximising battery life span.

I am personally limiting my Kona to 80% SOC. And I go beyond that only few times per year, when I go for some long roadtrip. I also avoid SOC below 20%, I was in this range maybe once.

I make up to 200 km daily and for that I consume approx 40% SOC, so I am mainly staying between 40% and 80% SOC.

 

[Danhen]

I don't frequent any Tesla sites but, yes, I've heard that too. But, again, is it true? I mean, Tesla's greatest claim to fame is its supercharger network. Are you going to tell me that supercharging from 20/80 is the same as trickle charging? Is the chemistry of Tesla cells the same as others? Hyundai's owner's manual (2019 at least) says to keep the car plugged in and charge to 100%. Are they wrong about their own batteries? And even if it was true at one time, does it really make sense that after a decade of battery advances in research and manufacturing that it's still true? It strikes me as a wives' tale that may have been born of past truths but is mostly just a story that keeps getting promulgated without any critical scrutiny. And, again, I think it's ultimately harmful to the "cause".

Apologize for agitating you on this, but I don't believe our owner's manual says what yours does nor clearly addresses the issue at all. That's the reason I was asking. Might be the same reason Ed V was asking. Did not mean to infer Hyundai does not know their own batteries.

If it would help with battery longevity (even if it's not a huge benefit) given the way we use our car it's something I can easily implement the vast majority of the time. If it's a complete waste of time obviously I would not bother.

I thought heat was one of the enemies and that fast charging as well as charging all the way to 100% produced significant heat. But I fully admit my perception may be totally off base, and that's why I was looking for input.

Our owner's manual repeatedly talks about the time to charge to 80%, and then each time in parenthesis says "you can charge to 100%". The message I get from it is you can charge to 100% if you need to. Admittedly perhaps I'm reading into something that's not there. Mixed into that I note you can program the car to charge to only 80% and I'm wondering if that's a clue there really is some benefit to not charging to a higher level. And then at the same time we are hearing Hyundai and Chevrolet tell at least some owners not to charge to 100%. Candidly I find it all rather confusing, and again that's the reason I'm asking.

Agree there's a lot of bogus info on the internet, but sometimes it's not bogus.

 

[Wildeyed]

I've got no issues with people charging their cars however they see fit and certainly however it may work for their driving habits. Imagine criticizing someone for how frequently or infrequently they bought gas or how much they put in the tank. It's a silly point to argue. My only frustration is with the battery zealots who take the 20/80 as gospel and who act as missionaries proselytizing it far and wide on the internet. It paints EVs as finicky, delicate, poor performing and short-lived - not attributes that are going to lead to wide acceptance. As a new user, and one who has clearly read widely and done research you are the perfect example of how widespread these "beliefs" are. You were still interested in taking the plunge despite them but how many potential buyers would be turned off if they repeatedly saw these same guidelines?
Another example of this is cold weather range. Even today serious articles in reputable publications cite range losses of 50% or more in cold weather. It's dated and inaccurate baloney but it's endemic and definitely deters potential EV adoption.

 

[ENirogus]

I have posted before, almost all the information regarding this relates to battery studies in bare battery cells, not in EVs with a battery management system.
Additionally, it is impossible to ever charge our cars to the '100 percent' level that technical papers speak of.
Things that appear to be the truth:

Leaving your car at a constant 100 percent state unused is probably not a great idea
Constantly draining your car to near zero is probably not a great idea
The lifespan of the batteries is so long that worrying and behaving like it is an issue is talking about battery life that well exceeds the likely life of the vehicle
Constant rapid charging is admitted to wear the batteries

I agree with Wildeyed that it is bad for EV adoption when people act like 20-80 is the way that batteries 'must' be treated

 

[Ginginova]

It is not must, it is recommended.
Like for normal cars. It is recommended to service them regulary, to drive them sensibly and generally take good care of them.
But you are not forced to.
That's why some cars end up being trash after several years, while from the same brand some of them last 25 years.

 

[Shark]

Personally I have no issue with someone seeking ways to stretch the life of the traction battery. I respectfully disagree with ENirogus that battery well exceeds the likely life of the vehicle. Considering how long cars last these days as well as the cost of replacing the traction battery, I DO believe traction battery life will determine the point at which many EV's are removed from service. On the other hand I think Elon's claims about how long Tesla's will remain in service are exaggerated. Many owners want the latest and the greatest in design and technology and OTA updates have inherent limitations such as hardware updates (not suggesting OTA updates are not an excellent feature).

Then again, perhaps my perspective is not typical as I've always tended to keep my vehicles well beyond the 10 year mark. But more and more owners are doing exactly that. Take a look at what's happened to the average age of each car on the road, and it was happening well before COVID hit.

Don't think anyone here was suggesting 20-80 is a must. The question was if avoiding 100% when feasible might be beneficial versus always charging to 100%. Seems to be analogous to Hyundai saying it's OK use DC charging, but at the same time to avoid using it constantly.

More clarity from Hyundai could be a good thing as I have the same questions Danhen and Ed V appear to have. My owners manual is not clear on the issue either.

I should point out I try stretching the life of the starter batteries in my ICE vehicles too. On the premise that it's best for automotive wet cell batteries to be kept fully charged, if one of the vehicles has been moved around the driveway/garage several times without having been driven far enough to fully charge the battery, or if one of the vehicles is going to be sitting unused for more than a few days I'll almost always put the car on one of my CTEK battery maintainers. Feel free to tell me it's overkill, I won't be insulted

 

[Shark]

One thing I will add about EV adoption is I have been shocked at the number of people asking us in depth questions about the car (range, charging times and equipment, location of charging stations, governmental rebates and incentives, etc.). Everyone wants to know all about it. EV's seem to be on everyone's radar.

 

[janusz Grabon]

Their battery guru Jeff Dahn was recommending charging up to 70% SOC and beyond that point only when really needed for shorter amount of time just before road trip.
This recommendation maximises battery life and is valid recommendation for most LiXX based battery chemistries.

That does not mean, that charging beyond 70% would make your battery explode, it is just a recommendation for maximising battery life span.

I am personally limiting my Kona to 80% SOC. And I go beyond that only few times per year, when I go for some long roadtrip. I also avoid SOC below 20%, I was in this range maybe once.

I make up to 200 km daily and for that I consume approx 40% SOC, so I am mainly staying between 40% and 80% SOC.

 

[Wildeyed]

So here's a question: if you baby the battery and keep your car forever but the battery drops to 80% of its original range do you then charge it to the "new 100" or do you now only charge to the "original 60%"?

 

[janusz Grabon]

I own 2021 Kona EV Ultimate 1000 miles on my odomiter according to my My car is equipped with 67.5 KW battery. My Dealer is telling me is ok to charge to 100%. My calculation is 100% =97%. My Qwestion is to expert only!! 67.5 KW 97%=65.4 or 64KW 97% +62 KW wich one is correct?
I live presently in New York average temp. 75-80 F I'm getinning 275 miles per charge . Car display show 100% charge. Witch calculation are correct , thanks wating for respod ,Janusz Grabon

 

[Shark]

I own 2021 Kona EV Ultimate 1000 miles on my odomiter according to my My car is equipped with 67.5 KW battery. My Dealer is telling me is ok to charge to 100%. My calculation is 100% =97%. My Qwestion is to expert only!! 67.5 KW 97%=65.4 or 64KW 97% +62 KW wich one is correct?
I live presently in New York average temp. 75-80 F I'm getinning 275 miles per charge . Car display show 100% charge. Witch calculation are correct , thanks wating for respod ,Janusz Grabon

One thing I can tell you is I learned long ago not to rely on anything a car dealer tells you. This is not unique to Hyundai, the same applies even to Porsche! Often they purposely lie through their teeth, sometimes they don't know what they are talking about, and other times they don't want to admit they don't know the answer and are merely guessing. And unfortunately it's not limited to just the salespeople.

 

[Shark]

So here's a question: if you baby the battery and keep your car forever but the battery drops to 80% of its original range do you then charge it to the "new 100" or do you now only charge to the "original 60%"?

Great question, but how would you even know? Guess you would have to know how much capacity your battery has lost. But the range you are seeing might also be a function of the weather at the time.