Electrify America Chargers

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electriceddy said:
EA has also equipped 60 Tesla Powerpacks (at present) with more to follow - 100 to 120 at it's charging locations to help combat outrageous demand charges by various utility companies:
https://insideevs.com/news/444483/tesla-intalled-60-batteries-electrify-america-charging/;)
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https://electrek.co/2020/09/17/tesla-batteries-60-electrify-america-charging-stations/

Palazzo says that the some utilities will charge them as much as $30 to $40 per kWh in demand charges.
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Makes the 0.31$/kWh seem like a bargain.

https://electrek.co/2019/11/26/interview-electrify-america-chargers/

On the previous Friday afternoon, at a location in Pennsylvania, three Audi e-trons simultaneously charged at 150 kilowatts. “It was no problem,” said Palazzo. “Every charger delivered at normal capacity.”
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The drivers paid about $20 each, but the bill from the local utility for so-called demand charges to the network totaled a shocking $1,300 — just for that session. Palazzo said that EA is adding battery storage to more than 100 of its locations, but it’s only enough to mitigate about 30% of those high-demand costs.
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ericy said:
https://electrek.co/2020/09/17/tesla-batteries-60-electrify-america-charging-stations/



Makes the 0.31$/kWh seem like a bargain.

https://electrek.co/2019/11/26/interview-electrify-america-chargers/
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That's fascinating stuff there.

I wonder if the future will be companies passing on some of those demand charges even more. Maybe they'd give more choices on the charging wattage, with prices to match. Or different prices depending on the utility's demand charge structure, or time of day, or whether that location has batteries and whether they're charged at the time.

I also wonder what the implications of this might be for utility-owned chargers. Would a utility be more or less willing to eat demand peak costs?
 
TRSmith said:
That's fascinating stuff there.

I wonder if the future will be companies passing on some of those demand charges even more. Maybe they'd give more choices on the charging wattage, with prices to match. Or different prices depending on the utility's demand charge structure, or time of day, or whether that location has batteries and whether they're charged at the time.

I also wonder what the implications of this might be for utility-owned chargers. Would a utility be more or less willing to eat demand peak costs?
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Seeing as the utility for electrical (B.C. Hydro) in my area of B.C. is a Crown Corp. ( owned by the government and the people of British Columbia) there will be no "eating" of demand peak costs, the owner's (tax payers) would have to shell out $ which at this time I don't see as a reasonable alternative. The cost of the B.C. Hydro chargers was supported by the Federal Gov. as well.
There is another utility electrical supply in B.C. as well (Fortis B.C.) which is owned by a private (the largest private utility company in Canada - Fortis Inc.) based in Newfoundland. Who knows what they will do.
Battery banks storing power for use during those peak periods are the answer and hopefully the Feds get on board to fund some of that cost as well if we intend to achieve the shared goals of the Paris Agreement.
 
Just reposting what I wrote in the Kia Niro forum because it applies equally to the Kona:

These guys are not stupid. They carefully selected numbers so their profit margins remain the same or higher compared to the older per-minute plans. For those who regularly arrived at chargers with optimal low battery SOC and high battery temperature, the per-kWh pricing will actually be much higher compared to their revised per-minute rates.

Let's say you arrive at optimal charging conditions and could peak at 72 kW.

Under previous KIA Plan costing 0.35 per minute:
$0.35 * 30 minutes = $10.50 for 36 kW delivered.

Under new per-kWh plans, the cost of those same 36 kW:
$0.31 per-kWh * 36 kW = $11:16 (with $4 monthly plan)
$0.43 per-kWh * 36 kW = $15.48 (without monthly plan)

Under new per-minute plans (where available):
$0.12 * 30 = $3.6 (with $4 monthly plan)
$0.16 * 30 = $4.8 (without monthly plan)

Maybe you'll save a little under situations where charging rates were sub-optimal due to high SOC or low battery temperature. Averaged over a whole year, this will probably make no difference. I think this is why they dragged their feet with all these price changes. They were collecting enough charging history data to be confident of what these changes would do to their bottom line.
 
Yup you can sustain 75kw until ~58% on a good day (https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.c...ng-data-for-the-bolt-kona-niro-soul-and-leaf/), so it’s a little more expensive if you ride the 10-60%, a little less expensive until ~76, a lot less expensive after.

As someone who almost never goes under 30% because ABRP always overestimate my consumption, I take it as a welcome change. I get more upset to get overcharged when the charger is limited to 40kw or the battery is cold.
 
When I took longer trips requiring multiple charging stops, the battery was always still warm from the previous stop so began charging at that optimal 70+ kW rate almost immediately (up to the usual throttling point at ~55% SOC). Those type of use cases of many short charging stops will be more expensive as I outlined above with per-kWh billing.
 
wizziwig said:
When I took longer trips requiring multiple charging stops, the battery was always still warm from the previous stop so began charging at that optimal 70+ kW rate almost immediately (up to the usual throttling point at ~55% SOC). Those type of use cases of many short charging stops will be more expensive as I outlined above with per-kWh billing.
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Ah, you see I don't tend to do it that way, I stop for lunch or dinner on a long trip and charge while eating, then I have enough of a charge to get to where I am going without having taken any extra time for charging. But the cut off was 75KW, so once the Kona started reporting the max charge rate of 75, you got the $0.19 per minute anyway.
 
Depends on your goal. If you want to get where you're going in the shortest amount of time, you only charge up to the throttle point and then move on to the next charger. I only charge beyond the throttle point if the next charger is too far away. The wait for the first throttle is usually enough for restroom and meal brakes for me.
 
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wizziwig said:
Depends on your goal. If you want to get where you're going in the shortest amount of time, you only charge up to the throttle point and then move on to the next charger. I only charge beyond the throttle point if the next charger is too far away. The wait for the first throttle is usually enough for restroom and meal brakes for me.
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Also, depends on where you are eating. When we are out on a road trip, after a out 6 hours of driving we tend to want a sit down meal.

But considering the first throttle usually doesn't occur until a bit after 80%, charging to at least 80% works fine. Sometimes the throttling starts at about 75%, but even then it is only slowed to about 55kw. But if I can find a 75kw+ charger, I definitely can be at 80% within 30 to 40 minutes and not need to stop again. Just about the right amount of time to order, get the food, eat and pay.

Then I make sure my hotel has charging stations and I charge overnight.
 
cmwade77 said:
Also, depends on where you are eating. When we are out on a road trip, after a out 6 hours of driving we tend to want a sit down meal.

But considering the first throttle usually doesn't occur until a bit after 80%, charging to at least 80% works fine. Sometimes the throttling starts at about 75%, but even then it is only slowed to about 55kw. But if I can find a 75kw+ charger, I definitely can be at 80% within 30 to 40 minutes and not need to stop again. Just about the right amount of time to order, get the food, eat and pay.

Then I make sure my hotel has charging stations and I charge overnight.
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On a 50kw charger you won’t throttle as fast, but on a 150kw it’s a different story: https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.c...ng-data-for-the-bolt-kona-niro-soul-and-leaf/

Per-kw pricing is just better in general, paying by time always makes a driver upset every time you’re not charging at full capacity because of the car or the charger, or when you have to charge to 90%.
 
CharlyM said:
On a 50kw charger you won’t throttle as fast, but on a 150kw it’s a different story: https://forum.abetterrouteplanner.c...ng-data-for-the-bolt-kona-niro-soul-and-leaf/

Per-kw pricing is just better in general, paying by time always makes a driver upset every time you’re not charging at full capacity because of the car or the charger, or when you have to charge to 90%.
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Except the max charge rate on the Kona is around 75kw and realistically, I have had no throttling under 75% on even a 300kw charger.

Charging per kwh is fine, but keep the price reasonable so it would be more comperable to the pet minute rate and not around doubling the price. Based on this, EA will be the last network I go to whenever possible, I will use more affordable options.

Please note I am not talking theoretical numbers, but actual billed costs. The new structure costs double the old one.
 
cmwade77 said:
Except the max charge rate on the Kona is around 75kw and realistically, I have had no throttling under 75% on even a 300kw charger.

Charging per kwh is fine, but keep the price reasonable so it would be more comperable to the pet minute rate and not around doubling the price. Based on this, EA will be the last network I go to whenever possible, I will use more affordable options.

Please note I am not talking theoretical numbers, but actual billed costs. The new structure costs double the old one.
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It does throttle at those points, you’re not going to see 75kw at 75% (just look at that ABRP data, there is literally one data point at 70kw at 75%, and that means they started at 75% and it throttles right after).

It is not double the price too, 0.35 * 30 is 10.5$ for 37.5kw, 11.6$ at 0.31 per kilowatt, it’s 10% more expensive in perfect conditions. You can’t charge for 30 minutes without throttling unless you start at 5% as well.
 
CharlyM said:
It does throttle at those points, you’re not going to see 75kw at 75% (just look at that ABRP data, there is literally one data point at 70kw at 75%, and that means they started at 75% and it throttles right after).

It is not double the price too, 0.35 * 30 is 10.5$ for 37.5kw, 11.6$ at 0.31 per kilowatt, it’s 10% more expensive in perfect conditions. You can’t charge for 30 minutes without throttling unless you start at 5% as well.
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I believe that cmwade77 had somehow gotten a deal for 0.19$/min. If that is your starting point, virtually anything other than free is going to be a lot more expensive.

With the per-minute pricing, my strategy at EA was to disconnect at around 65%. That gave me enough to get where I was going, without having to pay for more expensive power as the charge rate tapers. The per kWh pricing seems like an improvement to me, but then again we now have free L2 right at the office, and that's hard to beat. But I only go in once a month or so..
 
CharlyM said:
It does throttle at those points, you’re not going to see 75kw at 75% (just look at that ABRP data, there is literally one data point at 70kw at 75%, and that means they started at 75% and it throttles right after).

It is not double the price too, 0.35 * 30 is 10.5$ for 37.5kw, 11.6$ at 0.31 per kilowatt, it’s 10% more expensive in perfect conditions. You can’t charge for 30 minutes without throttling unless you start at 5% as well.
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But I do see 75 kw up to 75% then it drops to about 70 kw, still reasonable until 80%, then I generally stop. At 75kw I was getting charged $0.19 per minute, so that is where your calculation is flawed, for 30 minutes that is $5.70. like I said, it only did it the once over labor day weekend, but it is what happened.

And I start at 20% and charge for 30 minutes with throttling maybe going down to 70kw, that is only 5kw less. At 80% it would probably drop lower, but since you shouldn't quick charge over 80%, that doesn't matter.
 
cmwade77 said:
but since you shouldn't quick charge over 80%, that doesn't matter.
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I think that is a myth for two reasons:
1: the car limits charge power so it protects itself anyways.
2: it's a misconception because of the per minute rates making it unnecessarily expensive to quick charger at >80% SOC.
 
Esprit1st said:
I think that is a myth for two reasons:
1: the car limits charge power so it protects itself anyways.
2: it's a misconception because of the per minute rates making it unnecessarily expensive to quick charger at >80% SOC.
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Actually, it isn't a misconception, it also protects the charging station from overheating to limit to 80%, not to mention over 80% usually slows down to close to level 2 charging speeds anyway, so might as well move to a level 2 charger at that point and let others use the station and that is if you truly need to go above 80%, which most don't need to do anyway.
 
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