Can small Clarity battery last long if driving EV mode all the time?

[MrFixit]

I'm waiting for an answer from the Washington state attorney general's office to see if Washington state vehicles in now covered by the extended warranty. I've seen another Honda document and Hyundai document that stated we weren't covered.

The document attached above is specifically for the 2018 Honda Clarity PHEV, and it includes Washington in the covered states... Seems pretty authoritative, but it will be interesting to see if your AG concurs. I think my state (Maryland) came on board with model year 2011 and beyond.

 

[Jimmy Vo]

Your point keeps changing. And you’ve made some questionable assumptions along the way.

You’ve said that you question your decision to buy the Clarity all the time (after a month) and that you wish you could get a BEV instead.

Your point seems to be that you bought the wrong car for the wrong reasons.

@Landshark, my point is still the same. You have a small battery, you drive EV mode all the time, you lose %15 is a big deal. From 60 miles down to 50 miles is a big deal. In BEV, you lose 20 miles is like nothing, you still have hundreds of miles range. This assumption is that you want to drive in EV mode all the time, but if you say ohh we still have gas engine, then it's pointless to argue. You can drive your car with gas without a battery if you want...

 

[DucRider]

How, exactly, did you come to that conclusion?

From hundreds of conversations over the last 6+ years at our EV Showcase at the Portland Auto Show, NDEW and DEED events, Earth Day events, Q&A's where we've been brought in to speak to employees, Electric Avenue grand openings (from PGE), etc.
Not every interaction has that raised that as a concern, but it is fairly common to hear it. It is often tied to battery replacement cost - "Since the battery needs to be replaced at 100K miles, what will it cost to do it?"

 

[marshall]

The Honda document I looked at was for a 2009 Accord and it excluded Washington, Oregon, Delaware and Pennsylvania. The same exclusions are listed in my warranty booklet for my 2016 Sonata Plug-in hybrid.

I see the warranty for the 2020 Sonata Plug-in does include Washington, Oregon, Delaware and Pennsylvania.

 

[Landshark]

From hundreds of conversations over the last 6+ years at our EV Showcase at the Portland Auto Show, NDEW and DEED events, Earth Day events, Q&A's where we've been brought in to speak to employees, Electric Avenue grand openings (from PGE), etc.
Not every interaction has that raised that as a concern, but it is fairly common to hear it. It is often tied to battery replacement cost - "Since the battery needs to be replaced at 100K miles, what will it cost to do it?"

All I can say is, you’ve been having conversations with misinformed or ignorant people. They obviously don’t understand what a warranty involves.

As each day passes I’m beginning to believe the people that you are speaking with are more common than not.

 

[Pooky]

The 8/100 or 10/150 warranties do not cover degradation, only "failure". This is also the case with BEV batteries, and some companies have specifically excluded degradation as "normal" without specifying any limits. If the car can turn on and drive 2 miles, has the battery "failed"?

I disagree. Honda has stated that if battery capacity measures below 36.6Ah (and is still under warranty), then it will be replaced free of charge. Such a level of battery capacity reduction would be abnormally high for 8/10 years of regular use, but it is not total failure.



So yes, the warranties do cover degredation, but it is unlikely that you will ever reach 36.6Ah under warranty if you have a healthy battery.

 

[Landshark]

You can drive your car with gas without a battery if you want...

How is it that a PHEV with a battery that has lost 15%, or even 30%, of its capacity, becomes a car without a battery?

A 30% loss from the stated range of 47 miles is 14.1 miles. The car would still have 33 miles of EV range. That’s more than a new Prius Prime. There must still be a battery in there somewhere, wouldn’t you agree?

The theoretical, worse case scenario of a 14 mile loss of EV range is actually quite insignificant. It is a PHEV. It has a gas engine and approximately 280 miles of range on gas. That was a compelling reason to buy the car.

If someone knew that they could do all their driving with 47 miles of EV range, or 40-42 miles at freeway speeds, or 25-30 miles in freezing temperatures, they should have seriously considered buying a BEV.

Now let’s look at one of those 300 mile range BEV’s. What happens when that battery loses 30% of its capacity? That’s 90 miles. That’s significant. Now suppose it’s cold outside. There goes more range. Now suppose you have a long trip and don’t want to draft a semi at 60 mph like half the nimrods driving Tesla’s in California. You won’t get that estimated range at 80 mph.

Your point is based on a flawed assumption. Very few Clarity PHEV owners drive 95% of their miles in EV.

 

[JFon101231]

I probably drive 85% of my miles but 95% of my trips on EV. But those longer trips i can now use ICE backup instead of driving my truck or tracking down a charger and waiting around. I went on 2k road trip last year that wouldnt be possible in my previous Fit EV or even a Clarity BEV

 

[coutinpe]

How is it that a PHEV with a battery that has lost 15%, or even 30%, of its capacity, becomes a car without a battery?

A 30% loss from the stated range of 47 miles is 14.1 miles. The car would still have 33 miles of EV range. That’s more than a new Prius Prime. There must still be a battery in there somewhere, wouldn’t you agree?

The theoretical, worse case scenario of a 14 mile loss of EV range is actually quite insignificant. It is a PHEV. It has a gas engine and approximately 280 miles of range on gas. That was a compelling reason to buy the car.

If someone knew that they could do all their driving with 47 miles of EV range, or 40-42 miles at freeway speeds, or 25-30 miles in freezing temperatures, they should have seriously considered buying a BEV.

Now let’s look at one of those 300 mile range BEV’s. What happens when that battery loses 30% of its capacity? That’s 90 miles. That’s significant. Now suppose it’s cold outside. There goes more range. Now suppose you have a long trip and don’t want to draft a semi at 60 mph like half the nimrods driving Tesla’s in California. You won’t get that estimated range at 80 mph.

Your point is based on a flawed assumption. Very few Clarity PHEV owners drive 95% of their miles in EV.

Even if we do 95% or more on EV, anyone can get suddenly into situations in which charging (at the present stage) is not immediately available or practical and a 'pure' EV would leave you helpless. It just happened to me yesterday. I was just back home after a long trip with only 11 miles 'GOM' EV range left. I was just going to plug my car to recharge with my L2 as usual when we got hit with one of those "rolling blackouts" (new California fashion) and right then my son (living 25 miles away) called me asking for my help for an emergency. I couldn't stop to thank God I decided to buy a PHEV, being able to drive HV with the gas engine saved the day. Had it happened with a 'pure' BEV I would have been unable to reach him. That's why I can't be a 'purist'...

 

[DucRider]

I disagree. Honda has stated that if battery capacity measures below 36.6Ah (and is still under warranty), then it will be replaced free of charge. Such a level of battery capacity reduction would be abnormally high for 8/10 years of regular use, but it is not total failure.
So yes, the warranties do cover degredation, but it is unlikely that you will ever reach 36.6Ah under warranty if you have a healthy battery.

I should clarify that the minimum federal/CARB warranties do not specify what constitutes "failure", and individual manufacturers are free to include or exclude degradation however they choose.
All the documentation I have seen from Honda shows the 8/100 number for the degradation warranty, even in the Section 177 States where the minimum failure warranty is 10/150. I have the BEV so don't have the PHEV warranty book for a CARB State.
As an interesting note, Oregon had not passed all the most recent CARB regulations when the Clarity PHEV was introduced, and the first version of the warranty book/CD showed Oregon as only having an 8/100 warranty even though they are otherwise a Section 177 State. I was on an advisory committee along with the American Honda VP of alternative energy vehicles, so had his contact info. When Oregon was implementing their EV rebate program, one of the requirements to be eligible was the 10/150 warranty. Honda said they excluded OR from that coverage because in was not a statutory requirement for them to cover it. When I agreed, but pointed out that the rebate requirement language did require it (I also had a seat on the DEQ advisory committee for the OCVRP), they eventually changed to cover Oregon with the 10/150. This eventually become one of the recall/service bulletins that provided a new warranty CD and therefore the Clarity PHEV became eligible for the $2,500 "standard" Oregon rebate. Rules were modified so that starting last fall, PHEVs became eligible for the "Charge Ahead" rebate of an additional $2,500 for members of households with less than 120% of the median income based on the county of their residence. The Charge Ahead rebate is also available on used vehicles where the standard rebate is not.

 

[coutinpe]

I would like to add that measuring 'degradation' might be a tricky business if you rely on the 'EV range' as displayed by the Guess'O'Meter to estimate how much juice you have actually left. I have observed changes of even 12-15 miles of range just by driving to different places. Example: When I drive back and forth from San Fernando Valley to West LA (around 50 miles), after recharging I get 60-62 miles EV range. If I drive back and forth from SF Valley to Thousand Oaks (around 50 miles), after recharging I get 48-52 miles. If driving into SF Valley (streets, no freeway and no big slopes up or down), I usually get 55-57 miles. If for some reason you change your habits or your usual trajectory, you might end thinking your battery is 'degrading'.

 

[DucRider]

Even if we do 95% or more on EV, anyone can get suddenly into situations in which charging (at the present stage) is not immediately available or practical and a 'pure' EV would leave you helpless. It just happened to me yesterday. I was just back home after a long trip with only 11 miles 'GOM' EV range left. I was just going to plug my car to recharge with my L2 as usual when we got hit with one of those "rolling blackouts" (new California fashion) and right then my son (living 25 miles away) called me asking for my help for an emergency. I couldn't stop to thank God I decided to buy a PHEV, being able to drive HV with the gas engine saved the day. Had it happened with a 'pure' BEV I would have been unable to reach him. That's why I can't be a 'purist'...

If you had a BEV with just average range, you would have had plenty to reach him, run several more errands, and return home. All BEVs currently on the market have more than double the electric range you are using as a benchmark. At the upper end, you are looking at 10x your AER and also significantly more than your gas + electric range.

 

[Agzand]

All batteries degrade over time and with use. I have a little over 27,000 miles on my 2018 Clarity PHEV which is almost 2.5 years on the road. When new, I could drive the car almost 60 miles in gentle driving, 45 mpg or so. Now I am lucky to get 52 miles on a fully charged battery. As a result, I believe that my battery has lost between 10 and 12% of its original capacity. From what I can determine, Honda considers normal degradation to be up to 33% over the 8 year/100,000 high voltage battery warranty period. Typically EV batteries degrade more rapidly during the first year or two of use. A 33% degradation would result in just a 35 to 40 mile EV range.

The good news is that the Clarity is also a good hybrid car.

"Greater-than-normal degradation is covered for 8 years or 100,000 miles, and can be determined by an authorized Honda Clarity Plug-In Hybrid dealer."

You should check how much your car takes from a Level 2 charger to verify your battery capacity has dropped that much. I think it could have other culprit, like tires, tire pressure, alignment. Considering the buffer this car has, degradation seems a bit too high for that low mileage.

 

[Agzand]

Assuming people with BEV use DC fast charging is wrong. I have 2 friends, all use BEV. 99% of their charges are from home, just like us. Still, they also suffer degradation. Fast DC charger is for a long road trip for most people, and they go long road trip only once or twice a year. Many studies show DC fast chargers actually help if you do it once a while (Google it). So, I think DC fast charging will degrade BEV battery is a myth, unless like you do DC fast charging every day. I don't think a rational person would do DC fast charging every day

If you are a typical American you would think that way, but in Europe/Asia many EV drivers charge mainly on DC fast charging, because they park on the street. Many Tesla drivers used to do a lot of supercharging because it was free (like free pizza, hard to decline even though it is not good for you). In general DC fast charging is bad for the battery, because it generates a lot of heat.

 

[DaleL]

You should check how much your car takes from a Level 2 charger to verify your battery capacity has dropped that much. I think it could have other culprit, like tires, tire pressure, alignment. Considering the buffer this car has, degradation seems a bit too high for that low mileage.

I believe that the car itself controls the charging, not the level 2 charger. After charging, the battery guesstimate gauge indicates full. I rotate my own tires and meticulously maintain the tire pressure. I have seen no abnormal wear or balance issues. I do live in Florida where the ambient temperature is high. Batteries perform better when hot, but they also degrade more at high temperatures. The mpg on 2 long trips, 1800+ miles each with no charging, from Florida to Ohio and back, one in 2018 and the second in 2019, had no significant difference in mpg. If the cause were the tires, tire pressure, or alignment, it should have affected the mpg. In any case, until I observe a 30% or so drop in range, I don't think I can get the battery replaced under warranty.

 

[MrFixit]

As a result, I believe that my battery has lost between 10 and 12% of its original capacity.

Considering the buffer this car has, degradation seems a bit too high for that low mileage

I disagree... Trying to gauge battery capacity from range is fraught with errors. One of the more interesting ones is the fact that during this pandemic, the average speed that people are driving has definitely increased due to the reduced traffic. With all else being equal, a slight speed increase can easily account for a 10% drop in range. I would have no concerns with a 2018, 27K miles that "appeared to drop 10-12%".

After experiencing this car for almost 2 years, and learning about the much longer experience of others on this forum with similar types of vehicles, I believe people tend to fixate too much on range. I don't think there have been any credible reports here of actual excessive battery degradation. Certainly nobody has had an actual failure yet. One member has over 120K miles. I believe there was one report where Honda asked an owner to return their battery in exchange for a new one. The speculation was that they saw something through telemetry and wanted engineering to evaluate it.

 

[Landshark]

Certainly nobody has had an actual failure yet. One member has over 120K miles.

If memory serves, the owner with 120K miles has driven almost exclusively in HV, with depleted batteries.

This would not represent normal or typical driving habits. Is also does not follow the guidance from the manual which recommends fully charging the battery prior to each trip.

It is a fine example of operating the vehicle with depleted batteries for an extended period of time. Certainly a valid data point. It would not be a good example of a vehicle that had put the battery through numerous charge cycles.

To the point of battery capacity. The easiest and most accurate method it to have a Honda dealer perform a battery capacity test.

 

[coutinpe]

If you had a BEV with just average range, you would have had plenty to reach him, run several more errands, and return home. All BEVs currently on the market have more than double the electric range you are using as a benchmark. At the upper end, you are looking at 10x your AER and also significantly more than your gas + electric range.

Please allow me to respectfully disagree. Even if I had a 1000-mile range BEV if I ran into a situation in which my battery has few charge left ( you can even blame it on my negligence) and I needed to rush to a destination 25 miles away but there is a blackout or I'm otherwise unable to charge promptly, I still needed the gas backup (or even worse, an ICE vehicle). Bottom line: Complacency is not a good friend of progress. We can't forget we still need to do serious strides, perhaps less on battery technology but more on charging infrastructure and even more critically, in electric generation capability (the main reason we're having these rolling blackouts in CA) if we really want to leave the ICE era behind.

 

[insightman]

You can drive your car with gas without a battery if you want...

As I found out when my Insight's HV battery died, the DC-to-DC converter cannot charge the 12-Volt battery and extreme range anxiety becomes a reality. Perhaps you could make do without an HV battery if you found a way to install an alternator.

 

[DucRider]

Please allow me to respectfully disagree. Even if I had a 1000-mile range BEV if I ran into a situation in which my battery has few charge left ( you can even blame it on my negligence) and I needed to rush to a destination 25 miles away but there is a blackout or I'm otherwise unable to charge promptly, I still needed the gas backup (or even worse, an ICE vehicle). Bottom line: Complacency is not a good friend of progress. We can't forget we still need to do serious strides, perhaps less on battery technology but more on charging infrastructure and even more critically, in electric generation capability (the main reason we're having these rolling blackouts in CA) if we really want to leave the ICE era behind.

I rented a BMW i3 BEV a couple of years ago out of San Jose for a trip to visit friends in the Gilroy/Hollister area. Big storm knocked out most of the power from Morgan Hill South (along with much of San Jose), but I was able to charge at the outlet mall in Gilroy because the fast chargers (both CCS and Tesla Superchargers) still had power. I actually didn't need to, but wanted to top off for the following day instead of relying on L1 at their house. All the gas stations in Gilroy were coned off and closed because they had no power to pump gas. If I was driving an ICE vehicle and on empty, I would have been SOL until the following morning when power was restored.