Worldwide recall according to this 11 Oct news item.

[ericy]

The first problem I see for Hyundai assuming they have recall insurance, is most of these policies are capped, not uncommonly at 15 million or whatever. That is going to really fall short of a billion they are going to need to replace that many packs.

It depends on how many packs they actually need to replace. I suspect their hope is that they only need to replace packs that have cell voltages that vary by too much, and at this point we don't know enough to say whether that would be sufficient to prevent the fires. They *claim* that there have been no fires in cars that have had the update, but it hasn't been out all that long.

That's the other thing odd about the BMS update TSB - one does the voltage check only if the car has less than 22K miles on it - otherwise they are to *assume* that it passed and they go ahead and do the BMS update. Perhaps there is a 2nd assumption that the faults will show up early in the lifetime of the pack.

 

[mikeselectricstuff]

I'd they have identified issues, I'd think they'd do it by swapping the pack, then open it and swap any bad modules, replace those, re-balance and swap that pack back into the next car.
I know from talking to a Hyundai tech that they do at least module-level battery repairs in the UK.

 

[ericy]

I'd they have identified issues, I'd think they'd do it by swapping the pack, then open it and swap any bad modules, replace those, re-balance and swap that pack back into the next car.
I know from talking to a Hyundai tech that they do at least module-level battery repairs in the UK.

I don't know the details here - in theory there would be some facility somewhere in the U.S. that does similar repairs. Keep in mind that battery packs are hazmat and have to go by truck and not by air. Given the weight of the thing, that's probably the only feasible way to do it.

It isn't at all clear that one can make repairs at the cell level. I suppose in theory one could add a busbar to bypass a bad cell group, and then still use the module in powerwall types of applications.

 

[apu]

It depends on how many packs they actually need to replace. I suspect their hope is that they only need to replace packs that have cell voltages that vary by too much, and at this point we don't know enough to say whether that would be sufficient to prevent the fires. They *claim* that there have been no fires in cars that have had the update, but it hasn't been out all that long.

That's the other thing odd about the BMS update TSB - one does the voltage check only if the car has less than 22K miles on it - otherwise they are to *assume* that it passed and they go ahead and do the BMS update. Perhaps there is a 2nd assumption that the faults will show up early in the lifetime of the pack.

Don't get me wrong I am not crying a tear on their behalf, a billion dollars probably only presents about 10-15% of their annual net profits. I am happy that my car has not blown up and in all probability it won't. I do have some confidence the BMS update might be able to detect aberrant cell behavior. That said I don't really believe it will predict a catastrophic cell failure related to a structural defect. Hopefully Hyundai will do the right thing, whatever that is.

 

[apu]

I'd they have identified issues, I'd think they'd do it by swapping the pack, then open it and swap any bad modules, replace those, re-balance and swap that pack back into the next car.
I know from talking to a Hyundai tech that they do at least module-level battery repairs in the UK.

In theory can do it. I have zero confidence that their dealer service network on a global level can do it cost effectively and competently based on what we are seeing with their messed up software updates.

 

[Genevamech]

It isn't at all clear that one can make repairs at the cell level.

It seems difficult to get any solid information on the Kona's pack construction... there are teardowns of Tesla, LEAF and Bolt packs, but not Kona... however what info I have found suggests the construction is very similar to the Chevy Bolt. Each cell pouch is held in a frame, and these frames are stacked to form modules, and the modules into a pack; at least as shown here

https://electricrevs.com/2018/12/20...undais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/

It looks like cell-level repair is theoretically possible to me.

 

[ericy]

In theory can do it. I have zero confidence that their dealer service network on a global level can do it cost effectively and competently based on what we are seeing with their messed up software updates.

I would never expect a dealer to perform this type of repair. There would need to have a dedicated facility that does nothing but refurbish battery packs.

 

[ericy]

It seems difficult to get any solid information on the Kona's pack construction... there are teardowns of Tesla, LEAF and Bolt packs, but not Kona... however what info I have found suggests the construction is very similar to the Chevy Bolt. Each cell pouch is held in a frame, and these frames are stacked to form modules, and the modules into a pack; at least as shown here

https://electricrevs.com/2018/12/20...undais-new-battery-thermal-management-design/

It looks like cell-level repair is theoretically possible to me.

Maybe theoretically. John Kelly tore down a Bolt battery - those are built in a way that they can't easily be disassembled down to the individual cells. Not without breaking something. I asked Kelly if he could tear down a Korean car - he was interested, but needs a donor car.

I agree that Kona is probably similar to Bolt.

 

[cmwade77]

I would never expect a dealer to perform this type of repair. There would need to have a dedicated facility that does nothing but refurbish battery packs.

No, I think the process would be:

• Dealer installs new (or refurbished) battery pack
• Dealer sends old pack to Hyundai (or LG, etc.)
• They refurbish the battery and send it to the next person needing a battery

 

[apu]

No, I think the process would be:

• Dealer installs new (or refurbished) battery pack
• Dealer sends old pack to Hyundai (or LG, etc.)
• They refurbish the battery and send it to the next person needing a battery

I personally would have a problem with a refurbished pack not knowing its baseline condition or the past treatment of the replacement pack. If they were just offering replacement refurbs I would rather keep my original pack as I know I took exceptional care of it. Plus I would expect a new replacement given my car has only been in service for 10 months.

 

[ericy]

No, I think the process would be:

• Dealer installs new (or refurbished) battery pack
• Dealer sends old pack to Hyundai (or LG, etc.)
• They refurbish the battery and send it to the next person needing a battery

Sorry if I wasn't clear - that's exactly what it was that I thought the process would be.

 

[ericy]

I personally would have a problem with a refurbished pack not knowing its baseline condition or the past treatment of the replacement pack. If they were just offering replacement refurbs I would rather keep my original pack as I know I took exceptional care of it. Plus I would expect a new replacement given my car has only been in service for 10 months.

The underlying flaw isn't something you can avoid by taking good care of the battery. In my case, I thought I was taking good care of the battery (mainly trying to keep the charge level between 30 and 80%). But I had the BMS update, and now the car needs a new battery, so keeping the one the car came with isn't an option. I have two options now:

• Keep waiting, and whenever they get around to shipping a new battery, I get my car back. It might or might not be a refurbished battery. No idea when this might occur.
  
• Get Hyundai to buy the car back with the lemon-law. And then get something else, I guess (I put in a reservation for a VW ID.4 this morning, which I can cancel if I want/need to).

 

[TheLight75]

If your battery needs to be replaced, there is no way Hyundai will give you a brand new battery no matter how much of a fit you throw. They’ll give you one that has been “remanufactured“ to meet all of the original specs of a new battery.

 

[ericy]

If your battery needs to be replaced, there is no way Hyundai will give you a brand new battery no matter how much of a fit you throw. They’ll give you one that has been “remanufactured“ to meet all of the original specs of a new battery.

As best I can tell, they haven't replaced enough batteries for any reconditioned batteries to even exist. But there are apparently no new batteries available either.

The TSB for battery replacement shows two different styles of shipping containers. One that is "OEM", the other that is for "remanufactured".

 

[Ronny]

I just checked bluelink and found the following battery recall notification. This is in addition to the 960 BMS recall which I had done in June.

Recall 196 2019-2020 KONA ELECTRIC (OS EV) VEHICLE BATTERY REPAIR Recall Incomplete Oct 13, 2020

 

[ericy]

I just checked bluelink and found the following battery recall notification. This is in addition to the 960 BMS recall which I had done in June.

Recall 196 2019-2020 KONA ELECTRIC (OS EV) VEHICLE BATTERY REPAIR Recall Incomplete Oct 13, 2020

I see it too. No details of course as to what they actually intend to do. The old service campaign is marked as "completed". I guess I can call the dealer in the morning and see what they make of it.

 

[ericy]

I see it too. No details of course as to what they actually intend to do. The old service campaign is marked as "completed". I guess I can call the dealer in the morning and see what they make of it.

Nothing on the NHTSA site (yet) either. I was hoping to find the TSB that describes the work to be performed.

 

[Ronny]

Nothing on the NHTSA site (yet) either. I was hoping to find the TSB that describes the work to be performed.

Yes, I checked also and found nothing. I scheduled an appointment for Friday but will check with the dealer in the morning to find out what they plan to do if they even know about it!

 

[ericy]

Yes, I checked also and found nothing. I scheduled an appointment for Friday but will check with the dealer in the morning to find out what they plan to do if they even know about it!

Well my car is already there, so I was able to beat the rush - I assume no appointment will be required.

I just sent off an email to the service manager to give her a heads up, and see what she has to say about it.

 

[Ronny]

Well my car is already there, so I was able to beat the rush - I assume no appointment will be required.

I just sent off an email to the service manager to give her a heads up, and see what she has to say about it.

My prediction is that the dealers do not know about the recall and any proposed fix.