Why Not Plug In?

[Landshark]

but the damage is already done to PHEV reputation due to the earlier ones and how drivers use them.

What damage?

Any perception of damage could be due to a belief in misinformation or half baked articles like the one linked in the first post. Manufacturers are producing more PHEV models and people are lining up to buy them.

There are many misconceptions about PHEV’s. I’ve mentioned previously, a co-worker with whom I had discussed the Clarity. He said he had to have a gas car, and that was the end of the discussion. Some folks believe that it has to be plugged in or that it can only go 47 miles at a time.

In my opinion, your conclusion that the reputation of PHEV’s has been damaged because some owners may operate them outside of a contrived set of conditions, is a flawed conclusion.

 

[Dan Albrich]

"damage is already done to PHEV reputation due to the earlier ones and how drivers use them.

I guess I could see if someone knew of, or experienced first hand, poor electric range, that could theoretically damage a reputation. Although it must be said that all PHEVs even those with low EV range are still hybrids with better than normal mileage when using gas. Anyway, the part that I respectfully disagree with in your statement is "how drivers use them." Once someone actually owns a PHEV, even if they were uninformed prior, they learn the easy-way about the savings (time, money, convenience) of not needing a gas station. I think I'd plug in at home even if it were slightly more expensive; the convenience of "filling up" at home is pretty awesome. I especially notice this affect during winter holidays when time is hard to find, and not needing to line up for gas feels like winning the lottery.

 

[PHEV Newbie]

I guess I could see if someone knew of, or experienced first hand, poor electric range, that could theoretically damage a reputation. Although it must be said that all PHEVs even those with low EV range are still hybrids with better than normal mileage when using gas. Anyway, the part that I respectfully disagree with in your statement is "how drivers use them." Once someone actually owns a PHEV, even if they were uninformed prior, they learn the easy-way about the savings (time, money, convenience) of not needing a gas station. I think I'd plug in at home even if it were slightly more expensive; the convenience of "filling up" at home is pretty awesome. I especially notice this affect during winter holidays when time is hard to find, and not needing to line up for gas feels like winning the lottery.

As Mark W noted, the Europeans (I think it was specifically Germany) had a bad experience with PHEVs due to poorly thought out government incentives years ago. The problem is that many of the cars were purchased for employee use and the employers provided petrol as well. As a consequence, few employees ever bothered to charge them, making them less efficient than normal hybrids and not much better than normal ICE cars (see below video). That, and other dubious studies suggesting "real world" use of PHEVs is far more polluting than tests published by manufacturers/environmental agencies have cause Europe to institute a phase out of PHEVs (see https://www.forbes.com/sites/neilwi...ds-but-us-prospects-stronger/?sh=342675963fff and https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-54170207). Another criticism is that they are overly complicated and expensive to build, making them unreliable (see second video below). That's not necessarily the case. The Clarity has the same drive system as the very reliable Accord Hybrid, except with a smaller engine and a much bigger battery. The Rav4 Prime is basically a Rav4 Hybrid with a big battery. Thus, it doesn't have to cost a bomb to develop and build and can be very reliable.

 

[Dan Albrich]

The idea that someone would go out and purchase a plugin electric vehicle and then not plug in doesn't make sense to me. If you want an ICE vehicle, so be it. Why go through the bother to buy a PHEV and then not use the plug? The point about corporate cars just seems like poking the bear. First off, maybe 90% or more jobs don't come with a vehicle at all, and if you have a work-owned vehicle it isn't likely assigned for your use. More likely a shared work vehicle. But sure for the 2% out there that get assigned a vehicle, and the .001% of those that are PHEVs, I'll buy that they don't plug-in. But this is a straw man argument.

I don't like that folks like to bash PHEVs. To me, they really are the best hybrid vehicle out there. The battery is small compared to BEV but if it covers your commute that's the point. And since many commute daily, they can have most of their driving electric. 100% of the BEV owners I know, have at least one gas powered vehicle for their longer trips. This means all of the cost of at least two vehicles. And yes I know people that keep a "stable" of vehicles. One for every purpose I guess, but you have to be pretty wealthy to do that. Anyway, with a PHEV, one can buy/own/drive/maintain/insure just one vehicle.

Final thought, I appreciate it when journalists present facts and let the reader draw a conclusion. When one encounters the pattern of bold statements, having little independently verifiable facts, and especially if including a twist of fear, must bear scrutiny.

 

[Landshark]

That, and other dubious studies suggesting "real world" use of PHEVs is far more polluting than tests published by manufacturers/environmental agencies have cause Europe to institute a phase out of PHEVs

It’s the nature of the beast when you have a vehicle the can operate using gasoline or electricity. Simply establish an arbitrary if/then condition and prepare for a reality where those conditions are never met. Now, take it to the extreme by focusing on a statistically insignificant percentage of users and all the ducks are in a row for a governing agency to make another poor decision.

This forum is full of PHEV owners who have a Pavlovian response to a power outlet. Where are the reports of owners like myself, who have driven the car 32,000 miles and used 100 gallons of gas? At roughly 4000 miles on gas, the car has traveled nearly 90% of the total mileage on electricity. This, likely represents a more typical usage pattern and probably surpasses the arbitrary conditions established by the bean counters. Yet, dips#its publish articles that aren’t given more than an inch of thought, and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

As a person who is capable of independent thought, I don’t buy the “damaged PHEV reputation theory”.

 

[JohnT]

Gotta butt in

a deer attacked my wonderful Clarity and did $21000 damage .... Radiator has a couple of holes from the hooves - insurance will take care of it in the fullness of time - like maybe April/May ? who knows. Anyhow entitled to a rental - though limited period. Prefer the Clarity - it still drives fine - the radar is misaimed of course, front lights although 'loose' still work. Happened late November. Very careful driving so I don't get the gas engine going (there is an error light which doesn't translate to anything exact - but maybe the rad. I 'squeezed' shut the holes - still leaks of course; but the engine came an and ran for the obligatory 15 minutes last week and all remained well - topped up the rad.
So VERY happy to have a PHEV - a full ICE car would be off the road. And very 'pavlovian' about where there is an electric outlet

It’s the nature of the beast when you have a vehicle the can operate using gasoline or electricity. Simply establish an arbitrary if/then condition and prepare for a reality where those conditions are never met. Now, take it to the extreme by focusing on a statistically insignificant percentage of users and all the ducks are in a row for a governing agency to make another poor decision.

This forum is full of PHEV owners who have a Pavlovian response to a power outlet. Where are the reports of owners like myself, who have driven the car 32,000 miles and used 100 gallons of gas? At roughly 4000 miles on gas, the car has traveled nearly 90% of the total mileage on electricity. This, likely represents a more typical usage pattern and probably surpasses the arbitrary conditions established by the bean counters. Yet, dips#its publish articles that aren’t given more than an inch of thought, and the baby gets thrown out with the bath water.

As a person who is capable of independent thought, I don’t buy the “damaged PHEV reputation theory”.

 

[JohnT]

ps - the deer survived and ran off with its mother.

 

[Robert_Alabama]

a deer attacked my wonderful Clarity and did $21000 damage

I assume you have an extra 0 in this figure?

 

[JohnT]

Hi Robert
NOPE 21 thousand (Canadian) That front plastic is expensive.. don't know what the rad costs the bottom bumper is ok! buckled the hood, slight damage at hinge joint on fender passenger side. Hit almost dead center; radar seems ok - just pointed in the wrong direction and gives me wrong brake warnings. parts not available. used replacement with equivalent mileage etc is $38,000.

 

[ClarityBill]

I have not calculated my percentage recently, but I am well below half my miles on Electric. I regularly drive over 100 mile trips, and I bought the Clarity thinking 47 miles would be almost half my miles: Winter EV at 25 miles was a real surprise for me. Weekend car use is generally covered with 47 mile range, 25 mile range doesn't make it.

Pavolovian is a good description for my quest of charging stations. I charge at stations up to 1/2 mile away from my destination: This saves less than $4 in gas, and cannot be considered a reasonable plug-in activity.

I have a dedicated parking spot at one of the factories, and I had them install a charging station for me. Dedicated parking with charging stations (home or work), is the only way charging can be expected from the general population. The expense of installing a charging station (home or work), makes this option less available.

 

[Landshark]

Dedicated parking with charging stations (home or work), is the only way charging can be expected from the general population. The expense of installing a charging station (home or work), makes this option less available.

There is a 30% Federal Tax Credit, up to $1000, for the purchase and installation of an EVSE in a residential application. There are also, State, Municipal and Utility rebates in many areas, for qualified equipment. In some cases, the incentives can completely offset the cost of the project.

Additionally, depending on electricity rates and the price of fuel, using electricity can greatly reduce operating costs. Based on our current electricity and fuel prices, I’ve calculated that every 10,000 miles traveled in the Clarity using electricity, costs about $600 less than using gas. For the Jeep, the difference is $1000.

A majority of the time, L1 charging would suffice. Typically, that involves no cost, other than possibly needing to install a 120V outlet at a location where the car is normally parked. L2 charging is handy when both cars need to be charged at the end of the day or when EV range is nearly depleted and the car is needed again in a few hours time. We’ve done that on occasion by either returning home or stopping at of favorite free charging spot while we have lunch, go for a walk or do some shopping. Or we can simply go home and grab the other PHEV.

Ultimately, the cost to install a L2 EVSE at home, would likely prove to be both financially advantageous and a tremendous convenience, even without incentives.