Well this one should be a little more affordable, if you can wait until 2025:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mini-cooper-cabrio-neue-generation-2025-elektro/
What vehicles do you wish they made EV versions of?
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https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mini-cooper-cabrio-neue-generation-2025-elektro/
That would be perfect but 2025 is 4 years from now (((Well this one should be a little more affordable, if you can wait until 2025:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mini-cooper-cabrio-neue-generation-2025-elektro/
Dan
Domenick
Well-Known Member
Well, here's to hoping they figure out it would be much better as rear-wheel drive by then.Well this one should be a little more affordable, if you can wait until 2025:
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/neuheiten/mini-cooper-cabrio-neue-generation-2025-elektro/
What is this world coming to?
Liquid cooled Porsche 911s
Mid-Engine Corvettes,
Now a rear-wheel drive mini?
Well, here's to hoping they figure out it would be much better as rear-wheel drive by then.
Yes, it be much better as rear-wheel drive.
There is no reason for FWD in EV's should only be RWD or AWD
Dan
I assume you don't drive your Miata in the Canadian winters. I agree RWD/AWD tops FWD for performance, but the cornering of my MINI Cooper SE is certainly more than adequate for my hooning and safer IMO than RWD when the snow flies. I swore my 1967 Toyota would be the last RWD car I ever drove in the winter and have kept that promise to myself. I have had InsideEVs forum members hotly dispute my contention that FWD is safer in the slush and snow than RWD, but I stand by my opinion. OK, AWD is even better in the winter, but it adds weight, uses more power, hampers range, reduces interior space, and increases the price.
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Yes, you assume correct - I did not drive the Miata in Canadian winters as it was a convertible.
The Ford Mustang's that I had as coupe's I did drive but had good quality winter tires and it had no issues in the snow including winter storms.
Don't forget for decades people drove RWD car's in the winter including economy cars like the Pinto, Chevette etc.
If I am more worried about traction in the winter than AWD which is why here in Sudbury, Subaru is super popular. Have not driven the 1967 Toyota but still remember driving 1973 Dodge Dart.
Also not a fan of torque steer. One of the few car's I driven as FWD I that was good was the VW Jetta. Do not know how the Mini Cooper SE drives but guessing it is better than most FWD car's.
Dan
I'm afraid you're under the common misunderstanding about RWD or FWD in snow that comes (correctly) from the ICE paradigm. I've only driven once in the snow in Ontario but have driven plenty in Wisconsin and upstate New York. With ICE, FWD is definitely better because of the weight of the engine on top of the drive wheels. With a Tesla, your weight is well distributed at about 50:50 so the rear wheels get good traction. With experience, most will prefer a RWD Tesla to pretty much any ICE, including FWD and 4WD. We've argued this before and I suspect we'll need to continue to agree to disagree until we can do some ice autocross between good and comparable FWD and AWD EVs.
Other misconceptions:
These 5 "facts" are insignificant, incorrect, incorrect, irrelevant, and true with EVs.
1) adds weight: (insignificant) - doesn't add much and weight isn't really a huge factor for EVs excerpt for possibly extreme track handling. Even then, the additional thrust and control arguably compensates.
2) uses more power: (incorrect if done properly) - Another ICE paradigm that doesn't hold for EVs. 2 electrical motors pulling from the same battery are more efficient than 1 identical electric motor. Similarly, a large, powerful electric motor is more efficient than a small, weaker one. This is because there is essentially more copper generating the electromagnetic field, requiring less current. Most motor loss is due to the IsquaredC losses where I is current which is squared. Reducing it very much outweighs the extra weight of the copper or the other motor. Also, having 2 motors enables a different gear ratio for each which gives an additional amount of optimization against the back EMF that starts to limit the power of an electric motor at high RPMs. Remember that most EV motors, even those on the Tesla P100D are only about the size of a watermelon so they don't add much weight. 4WD on an ICE requires additional lossy drivetrain components, and heavy gears and driveshafts which cause inefficiency.
3) hampers range: (incorrect if done properly) - see 2) above
4) reduces interior space: (irrelevant if done properly) - this is because, if a model is designed for the 2nd motor option, the space (which is very small) is pretty much wasted. The Model S is a good example. Early ones had a big "microwave oven area" in the frunk which was later filled in with the 2nd motor. Once the design was for the 2 motors, IIRC, the 2wd still did not get that microwave one area. It was so named because of its size and shape. EV motors are very small. Adding another doesn't take much space.
4) price: true. It is a bit more expensive. But since electric motors are relatively cheap, its a lot cheaper to make a 4wd EV than an ICE because of all of the linkages (transfer case, driveshaft, gears, etc) that the ICE needs
You appear to be well schooled in ICE and I'll definitely defer to your knowledge there but suggest that you should consider thinking differently when it comes to EVs. The tradeoffs for the 2 differ.
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I cannot mount a strong argument against most of what you wrote--and you wrote well, but I'll cling to is my belief that having the steering wheels also being powered wheels does a better job of making a car go where it's pointed in slush and snow--especially for the small cars I've always driven, both ICE and EV.
I'm so glad that MINI thought otherwise. I'd hate to be driving a 2-ton MINI Cooper even if it offered double my car's 110-mile range. I'm a disciple of the late Colin Chapman (except that all his Lotus cars were RWD), believing that more weight is always bad. Were I offered a new-tech battery that offered either more range or lighter weight, I'd choose the latter.
Puppethead
Well-Known Member
This makes me wonder if FWD on a BEV with a 50:50 weight distribution is as bad as people assume, considering most base their experience on ICE FWD and the uneven weight distribution.
My FWD MINI SE with (nearly) 50:50 weight and lower center of gravity seems to handle a lot better than my previous FWD ICE MINI, with much less apparent torque steering. I don't have experience with RWD, so I'm not going to claim it's comparable, but maybe not as bad as so many think.
Me too, although I was always told it was "Simplicate and add lightness".
Another Chapman quote I liked was something like: "adding power will win in the straight sections of the track. Adding lightness will win in all sections"
I also liked "Any car that lasts beyond the finish line was too heavy", and, regarding tool organization: "If you can't find a tool, you might as well not even bring it to the track".
His adages apply, not only to automobile design but, also to general systems engineering as well as aircraft design.
My big unknown regarding tracking is how the extreme thrust (torque) of the electric motor changes the equation.
Another issue with batteries is that in addition to adding more range, more batteries also provide more power and thrust (torque). The bad side is the extra mass they add. This paradigm shift also needs to be worked out by the racing world to find the happy tradeoff. For normal driving, bigger batteries last longer because they don't need to go through so many full charge/discharge cycles. This, may call for track cars' batteries to not last too long.
There's a lot of EV motorsports knowledge that still needs to be studied and gained. The next few decades will be interesting for EV gear heads.
Please ignore the political BS. Some folks have to be tribal about everything. You have too much to offer this forum to go away. Political leanings should be irrelevant to EV conversations. Surely, this is something we should all be able to agree upon.
Maybe some day, we can get a good FWD ICE, an FWD EV, a RWD ICE, and a good RWD EV on some ice (the frozen water kind) or at least a skid pad, and test the various merits of each topology.
On the other hand, I recall driving through a snow covered parking lot once when another car was coming out of an aisle going too fast to stop. I was able to floor the gas of my RWD car and spin the rear out of the way and avoid her hitting me. (experience from being a teenage trouble maker making donuts in the high-school parking lot when it snowed paid off
)An FWD, of course, wouldn't have enabled such a fish-tail operation but it might have provided enough traction to accelerate out of the way instead.
This thread is more aspirational along the lines of: https://www.treehugger.com/electric-vehicle-ev-conversion-companies-85249
EVPorsche.com Located in West Palm Beach, Florida, and Los Angeles, CA, . . .
Eco-conversions This company specializes in converting regular gas burning cars into clean electric machines—they have zeroed in on luxury vehicles with their benchmark, the BMW 8-Series, . . .
Electric Vehicle Systems – Based in New Underwood, SD, . . .
Electro Automotive – Located in Felton, CA, Electro Automotive was founded in 1979 as a single source for quality conversion components. . . .
Electric Vehicles of America (EVA) - EVA provides free detailed calculations for specific all-electric applications, from industrial, on-road electric car or truck, off-road EV or boat. . . .
EV-Blue/Electric Blue – Based in Kansas, this company will convert any gasoline burner to electric—you supply the vehicle, they do the conversion. . . .
EV Source LLC - Located in Logan, UT, this company provides high-quality electric vehicle components to the high performance, high voltage EV conversion market. . . .
Metric Mind Corporation - Based in Oregon, Metric Mind Engineering (MME) is an international company that supplies high end AC drive systems and other EV components. . . .
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles LLC - This company provides design, building and maintenance services for electrical vehicle conversions in the Austin, TX area.
Wilderness Electric Vehicles - Located in Utah, this company specializes in electric car conversions. You supply the vehicle—they provide the conversion in 3 to 4 months. . . .
Bob Wilson
EVPorsche.com Located in West Palm Beach, Florida, and Los Angeles, CA, . . .
Eco-conversions This company specializes in converting regular gas burning cars into clean electric machines—they have zeroed in on luxury vehicles with their benchmark, the BMW 8-Series, . . .
Electric Vehicle Systems – Based in New Underwood, SD, . . .
Electro Automotive – Located in Felton, CA, Electro Automotive was founded in 1979 as a single source for quality conversion components. . . .
Electric Vehicles of America (EVA) - EVA provides free detailed calculations for specific all-electric applications, from industrial, on-road electric car or truck, off-road EV or boat. . . .
EV-Blue/Electric Blue – Based in Kansas, this company will convert any gasoline burner to electric—you supply the vehicle, they do the conversion. . . .
EV Source LLC - Located in Logan, UT, this company provides high-quality electric vehicle components to the high performance, high voltage EV conversion market. . . .
Metric Mind Corporation - Based in Oregon, Metric Mind Engineering (MME) is an international company that supplies high end AC drive systems and other EV components. . . .
REVOLT Custom Electric Vehicles LLC - This company provides design, building and maintenance services for electrical vehicle conversions in the Austin, TX area.
Wilderness Electric Vehicles - Located in Utah, this company specializes in electric car conversions. You supply the vehicle—they provide the conversion in 3 to 4 months. . . .
Bob Wilson
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Are these more expensive than purchased EV vehicle?
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I don’t know as we have a Std Rng Plus Model 3 and BMW i3-REx. The prospect of a 1966 VW MicroBus with a transplant Model 3 drivetrain is attractive.
Bob Wilson
Domenick
Well-Known Member
Typically, yes. Every conversion is different and the cost can vary widely, especially as it concerns different battery packs sizes.
Depends on what you are comparing it to.
From the Shift EV site:
FULL CUSTOM CONVERSIONS
Nearly any vehicle can be converted to electric power. We are meticulous about safety, quality, finish and specialize in vintage, classics, restomods, derelict's and concept prototypes.
A proper design and assembly of a one-of-a-kind EV conversion may take hundreds of hours with total cost starting from $40k to $60k.
https://www.shiftev.com/pages/serviceNearly any vehicle can be converted to electric power. We are meticulous about safety, quality, finish and specialize in vintage, classics, restomods, derelict's and concept prototypes.
A proper design and assembly of a one-of-a-kind EV conversion may take hundreds of hours with total cost starting from $40k to $60k.
These folks did a full Tesla transplant into Johnny Cash's 1970 Rolls Royce - at probably many, many times that "starting from" amount (they bought a brand new Model S as a donor car).