What is Honda Thinking?

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rodeknyt

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I just received a slick, 4-color postcard from Honda about a new "visionary" model of the CR-V. They call it the CR-V e:FCEV.

This car combines a 17.7 KWh battery with a hydrogen fuel cell. They show an EPA estimated 29 miles on the battery and a total combined range of 270 miles. It is only available for lease at "selected" California Honda dealers.

This is a total joke. The plug-in part makes sense, but to combine it with a fuel cell is ridiculous. Their card says there are 50+ hydrogen stations in the entire state. I have a neighbor with some brand of fuel cell vehicle. He says that a good number of the (now diminishing) hydrogen stations are offline more than not.

I would have thought Honda learned their lesson with the BEV version of the Clarity—building something that really wasn't practical. Making a plug-in hybrid would be so much more practical. I guess Honda's R&D folks have a lot more dollars than sense.

Looks like this means all the longing for a PHEV version of the CR-V will be for naught.
 
Sometimes, some people would tell us that us commoner people disagreeing with the sort of decisions the sacred class of corporate priests often make is based in our ignorance and limited intellect, and then we are automatically classified on the despicable category of "armchair" expert, armchair CEO or whatever (I don't even have and armchair) since the highly knowledgeable corporate leaders ALWAYS know what's best for us the rabble. Still, they keep losing billions over billions pushing far-fetched projects, while at the same time refusing to do a practical thing that indeed would bring more people closer to electrification, or at least get closer to the (alleged) goal of reducing carbon emissions. I don't care, I will keep saying SOMEONE is militantly opposed to the very idea of a PHEV, for some reason they won't bother to tell us, or would tell us a lie, like that chap from GM who once said we didn't want PHEVs...
 
Honda's clearly not willing to give up on hydrogen, but nobody thinks the CR-V e:FCEV is going to big seller. Are they even going to sell it or just lease it like they've always done for vehicles without combustion engines?

Edit: I just checked the CR-V e-FCEV website and it is lease-only.

When discussing Honda's EVs, Honda US CEO Kazuhiro Takizawa said, "You can’t force the customer to change their mind, really, and to some degree [you can incentivize] them but we just can’t force the people living in, say, the midwest, with no charging stations."

He then said, "Even with incentives they will not change from ICE to BEV. I believe it will be very difficult to force people to go for it. We need to prepare the ecosystem gradually and let them migrate little by little."

SO WHY NO US PHEVs, MR. TAKIZAWA?

Toyota CEO Koji Sato, "Shut up, Mr. Insightman!"
 
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Johnhaydev said:
Agree CR-V e:FCEV makes no sense. They do have a PHEV version of cr-v in china.
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Well, may this piece of information help us to restrict the search for the SOMEONES staunchly opposing to the production/sale of PHEVs to this side of the Pacific?
 
I remember when I was looking for a PHEV back in '18 seeing a lot of propaganda on the internet about Hydrogen and fuel cell, including a video shot supposedly in Denmark showing how they set up a prefabricated Hydrogen charging station in no time. They made it look like piece of cake and its adoption and generalization around the corner, so I was almost tempted to go either for a Clarity fuel cell or a Toyota Mirai, but I decided to wait and see the course of events before taking such a plunge, and went for a PHEV, which looked (and still looks) like the best alternative. Now more recently there was some talk of Toyota making and engine able to work directly with H2 (not an EV, but an actual Hydrogen-fueled vehicle): https://www.toyota-europe.com/news/2022/prototype-corolla-cross-hydrogen-concept.
To me, H2 makes way more sense from the environmental point of view than batteries, for many reasons from mining to disposal, so what happened? What happened to the easy-to-set H2 pumps? Here is what KBB has to say about it: https://www.kbb.com/car-advice/hydrogen-fuel-cell-cars-pros-cons/. Are the 'cons' they list true? Are there 'cons' greater than the "cons' of BEVs? Were the prefabricated danish H2 pumps a prefabricated lie?
As Hannah Arendt once said: "The problem with continuously lying to people is not actually make the people believe a lie, but the people ending not believing anything, so you can do with them whatever you want."
 
One of the downsides of hydrogen as a fuel is that it actually costs more to get the same distance as gasoline—even compared to the eye watering gas prices in California. Other than a ecological statement, hydrogen isn't ready for prime time.

And if Honda is concerned about customers in the midwest, why not make a car that they can use?
 
rodeknyt said:
One of the downsides of hydrogen as a fuel is that it actually costs more to get the same distance as gasoline—even compared to the eye watering gas prices in California. Other than a ecological statement, hydrogen isn't ready for prime time.

And if Honda is concerned about customers in the midwest, why not make a car that they can use?
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A nuclear reactor could produce huge volumes of hydrogen. Of course, that wouldn't overcome the difficulties of storing and transporting hydrogen, and the nuke wouldn't be cheap, but the hydrogen it made could be a lot cheaper than the hydrogen they use evil chemistry to extract from natural gas.

It's funny that Honda builds CR-Vs in the midwest (Ohio), but this one won't be available to customers within 2,000 miles of Ohio.
 
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Agree, hydrogen fuel cell vehicles promise long range but the station support just isn't there. Realistically if anything they'd work better for fleets that could go all day and then come back to base and fill up for the next day...
 
A hydrogen PHEV is way ahead of its time. It is a nice green solution to act as a environmentally friendly battery of sorts to make renewables actually possible without an absolutely massive investment in nuclear (Which will still be needed in areas that get winters I might add...) In the future it makes sense to have hydrogen replace fossil fuels as you'll need some way to quickly fill up trucks, trains, and other industrial needs. Consumers not having to rely on charging will almost always have a place in the world as time is the only resource you cant make more of, and you are always loosing.

Sometime in the future I could see this as a possibility but now its likely more customer based R&D than anything else. Its all a learning experience for Honda, not designed to make money. That's why the vehicles are lease only.

What Honda needs to do is make a PHEV ridgeline with a 30kwhh battery pack using a 250-300hp traction motor paired to the 2.0L Atkinson's cycle (Or bring back the 2.4 if you need more *** for towing). A PHEV truck that can tow 4k+ and also work as an electric commuter car has a market for those with old trucks for towing and a separate good on gas car for commuting. (Me included)
 
I can't find now that article or post of someone saying that "hydrogen could be easily produced now at local pumping stations by electrolysis of water using electricity, ideally from renewable sources"... Maybe just another piece of fake news? Now, I have only been in this country for 15 years, so there is a lot of stuff I still don't know or understand: First, how long did it take to establish the network of gasoline pumps once ICE cars became widely available? Second, how long did it take to develop the interstate freeway system? I'm very afraid I'm gonna get the same sort of answer as to why we were able to get to the moon with a 32KB computer almost 60 years ago and now we can't...
 
Conspiracy theories aside, market forces and government interventions are primary motivators in the corporate decision making world. Occasionally, independent thought may result in an original hare-brained idea, or there could just be a desire to try something experimental.

While still a relatively small percentage of total US vehicle sales, PHEV sales in the US have increased significantly over past 2 years. Even GM is jumping onboard. Market forces changed their tune. That’s how it works.

At the same time that Federal interventions to bring us a greener world have actually disincentivized the uptake of electrified vehicles, California interventions that require PHEV’s to have at least 50 miles of EV range have nudged Toyota to begin discussing the release of PHEV’s in the US by 2025-26, with EV ranges of up to 120 miles.

It may be beneficial to sit tight for a year or two and then shop for something other than a Honda.
 
Hydrogen will never be a viable alternative for vehicles. Infrastructure to supply and distribute hydrogen makes electricity distribution for EVs look like child's play. And it can't compete with EV efficiency. Here's a summary with my best case efficiency estimates for using electrolysis to make hydrogen and power fuel cell cars versus EV efficiency. EVs and H vehicles use the same "base material" (electricity) but the overall efficiency difference is dramatic, even excluding all the distribution infrastructure problems.
Best case efficiencies

1. H Transmission and Distribution .90

2. Electricity T & D .90

3. H Electrolysis .85

4. H Compression .95

5. H Fuel cell .60

6. Electric Motors .95

7. Battery .90

So H efficiency is .90*.90*.85*.95*.60*.95*.90=34%

EV = .90 *.95*.90 = 77%

Its maybe possible they could control a fuel cell well enough to not need a battery but that would still be 38% efficiency, half an EV. Half the efficiency means double the electricity use. How does that make sense?

Its bizarre how big companies don't get this.
 
David Towle said:
Half the efficiency means double the electricity use. How does that make sense?

Its bizarre how big companies don't get this.
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See “Interventions” above. No manufacturer other than Tesla would willfully invest in alternative fuel vehicles without interventions. Geniuses outside of the major automakers have decided that hydrogen is our savior and they’re going to give it a go.
 
coutinpe said:
I can't find now that article or post of someone saying that "hydrogen could be easily produced now at local pumping stations by electrolysis of water using electricity, ideally from renewable sources"... Maybe just another piece of fake news? Now, I have only been in this country for 15 years, so there is a lot of stuff I still don't know or understand: First, how long did it take to establish the network of gasoline pumps once ICE cars became widely available? Second, how long did it take to develop the interstate freeway system? I'm very afraid I'm gonna get the same sort of answer as to why we were able to get to the moon with a 32KB computer almost 60 years ago and now we can't...
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Problem with electrolysis is that it consumes the anode, and depending on the material releases makes toxic byproducts. Only way around that is to use a metal like platinum, but even that will slowly degrade.
 
rdav said:
A hydrogen PHEV is way ahead of its time. It is a nice green solution to act as a environmentally friendly battery of sorts to make renewables actually possible without an absolutely massive investment in nuclear (Which will still be needed in areas that get winters I might add...) In the future it makes sense to have hydrogen replace fossil fuels as you'll need some way to quickly fill up trucks, trains, and other industrial needs. Consumers not having to rely on charging will almost always have a place in the world as time is the only resource you cant make more of, and you are always loosing.

Sometime in the future I could see this as a possibility but now its likely more customer based R&D than anything else. Its all a learning experience for Honda, not designed to make money. That's why the vehicles are lease only.

What Honda needs to do is make a PHEV ridgeline with a 30kwhh battery pack using a 250-300hp traction motor paired to the 2.0L Atkinson's cycle (Or bring back the 2.4 if you need more *** for towing). A PHEV truck that can tow 4k+ and also work as an electric commuter car has a market for those with old trucks for towing and a separate good on gas car for commuting. (Me included)
Click to expand...
Making a phev truck with a 2l engine, or even a 2.4l would turn the Ridgeline from a truck targeted at non truck people to a truck exclusively for non truck people (grocery getting).
 
TC1782 said:
Problem with electrolysis is that it consumes the anode, and depending on the material releases makes toxic byproducts. Only way around that is to use a metal like platinum, but even that will slowly degrade.
Click to expand...

There’s some hype about using gallium and aluminum, with either fresh or salt water, at room temperature with no (zero) energy input to produce hydrogen. There’s been a great deal of hype about amazing new technology that’s just around the corner, yet fails to appear, so we’ll see.
 
TC1782 said:
Making a phev truck with a 2l engine, or even a 2.4l would turn the Ridgeline from a truck targeted at non truck people to a truck exclusively for non truck people (grocery getting).
Click to expand...

Are you familiar with the Jeep Grand Cherokee 4xe? It is a PHEV that has a 17kWh battery and a 2.0l (275hp turbo) engine and a 6000lb towing capacity. It s#its and gets when accelerator pedal hits the floor. It blows my 300hp 6.0l V8 pickup truck out of the water.
 
Landshark said:
There’s some hype about using gallium and aluminum, with either fresh or salt water, at room temperature with no (zero) energy input to produce hydrogen. There’s been a great deal of hype about amazing new technology that’s just around the corner, yet fails to appear, so we’ll see.
Click to expand...
Gallium and aluminum? That's certainly an interesting combination. Thing is, as described, the aluminum and/or gallium would need to be consumed. I'm not aware of gallium being a common resource, and aluminum takes alot of electricity to make. I dunno how practical it would be.
 
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