What do you think of Anderson Economic Group's EV vs. ICE report?

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Shannon Mollenhauer

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Just read an article from Detroit Free Press about a report by AEG on the "true cost" of EV vs. ICE. Didn't see anything on here yet, so I thought I'd link to the original report and ask for your thoughts.
https://www.andersoneconomicgroup.c...10/EVtransition_FuelingCostStudy_10-21-21.pdf

For one thing, it seems like they might have made some claims about "mid-price" ICE cars that get 33mpg that don't align with reality. Likewise the true MPG of luxury cars compared to luxury EVs.

Also, they seem to disregard the likelihood that most drivers will only need to charge at home compared to the scenario and cost of charging at commercial stations most or all the time.
 
Shannon Mollenhauer said:
Also, they seem to disregard the likelihood that most drivers will only need to charge at home compared to the scenario and cost of charging at commercial stations most or all the time.
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They acknowledge (but vastly underestimate) home charging, then completely ignore it in their calculations and conclusions.
 
Interesting but flawed because they ignored:
  • Local free charging - Whole Foods but others realized offering free L2 charging brings EV customers in. About ~1/3d of my local EV miles comes from merchants who want me as a customer. Where are the local ‘free gas’ merchants?
  • Motel free chargers - we get a free breakfast and full charge overnight. Who gives free gas for staying overnight?
This is a terribly flawed report missing the total cost of EV travel both local and cross country. Worse, the introduction lists different EVs yet lacks specifics per make (hiding the Tesla advantage??)

Bob Wilson
 
Conclusion first, "facts" to follow. Or as the Red Queen of Hearts said "Sentence first... verdict afterwards".
 
I didn't read the study cited in the article. But last Mar (just before covid lock downs) we did a road trip down to CA and AZ. The US fast charging stations were quite expensive. And when I figured it out for the trip, it was indeed cheaper to take our ICE car, so that is what we did. This year might be different with the gas costs way up.

Different story in Canada, where it is easy to travel with free fast charging, esp here in BC.
 
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R P said:
I didn't read the study cited in the article. But last Mar (just before covid lock downs) we did a road trip down to CA and AZ. The US fast charging stations were quite expensive. And when I figured it out for the trip, it was indeed cheaper to take our ICE car, so that is what we did. This year might be different with the gas costs way up.

Different story in Canada, where it is easy to travel with free fast charging, esp here in BC.
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To me it’s a cherry picked article couched in bad language. For instance citing costs on a 100 mile trip using the most expensive chargers when anyone who has a modern EV would not need to stop and charge at a station at all. Could charge at home for that.
 
Here are my thoughts. My brothers wife was dead set on buying a tesla after she saw my i8. They only have on street parking and no close by tesla chargers (or any others within 5 miles) they would most certainly rely on public charging. I convinced her to rent a model 3 off turo for a week. Got her a bunch of apps plugshare etc. After 2 days when the novelty wore off she was heartbroken. For her she hated how much of a hassle it was trying to plan charging before she could go visit friends she normally just takes off after work to visit. Her best friend lives at least an hour away. And that charging was again needed after she got back. She also found that finding "free" charging was too much of a hassle for her. Plus she made the mistake of buying frozen items and having to leave after only barely 20 min charging when she planned to charge at a grocery store. It also isnt a common store she uses or convenient or close by to their home.
In the end she got a bmw 3 series convertible. She liked the tesla but returned it early.

Its just not viable if you have only on street parking and have to rely on public charging. So if that was the case I agree with the article. Charging is not regulated like gas stations. So many have ridiculous "parking" fees if you leave your car sitting plugged in after it completed charging. Many public chargers have poor efficiency and their fees make it very expensive.
Im waiting for regulation similar to gas nozzle and fuel filler necks on cars. Once all charging is mandated to be one useful standard it will get much much cheaper for all. Until they start mandating electrical road taxes for charging cars that is
 
Tommyb13662 said:
Once all charging is mandated to be one useful standard it will get much much cheaper for all.
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If that is the Tesla plug and socket, I'm all for it. <GRINS>
  • smaller physical size - makes it easier for smaller stature people
  • handles AC and DC charging
  • handles 250 kW - easily enough to add 120 miles in about 15-20 minutes
    • @4 mi / kWh -> 4 * 250 * 0.25 hrs ~= 250 miles
    • 0.25 hrs is a mixed gender and age biology break
Bob Wilson
 
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Lol you are seriously saying the tesla plug is easier for small people to use??? If plugging in an electrical plug is near the limit of your physical ability I doubt you should be driving.
Second you are overly optimistic about the efficiency of chargers. I have yet to see ANY charger get above 85% efficiency. Sure it puts out 250kw. Have you kept track of the actual kw used to charge your car 10kw? Minimum currently its going to be 11.3kw. Thats the best I have seen.
Third I have yet to see any tesla get over 200 miles range in 15 min even from a supercharger. And depending on battery used is usually only from 20-80% charge in the 15 min. Honestly at superchargers I got roughly 150 miles range average in 15 min. Give it 5 years and we will be seeing 300ish miles in 15 min. But current technology is too inefficient on both charger and battery side.
Ev needs standards like their gasoline counterparts. Standard swapable batteries, standard battery sizes, standard charging systems. Sure competition breeds inovation but the reality is currently the customer is suffering while the companies fight to try to make their standard win.
 
Tommyb13662 said:
Lol you are seriously saying the tesla plug is easier for small people to use??? If plugging in an electrical plug is near the limit of your physical ability I doubt you should be driving.
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Owning both a Tesla and CCS-1 EV, I've hefted both. Apparently you remain blissfully ignorant.
Tommyb13662 said:
Second you are overly optimistic about the efficiency of chargers. I have yet to see ANY charger get above 85% efficiency. Sure it puts out 250kw. Have you kept track of the actual kw used to charge your car 10kw? Minimum currently its going to be 11.3kw. Thats the best I have seen.
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My Tesla is peak, fast DC charge limited to 170 kW. There are ample YouTube videos showing 250 kW as well as PlugShare user reports (perhaps you don't know about PlugShare.)

Both our Tesla Model 3 and BMW i3-REx limit their AC charging to ~32 A, 6.6-7.6 kW, depending of the AC voltage.
Tommyb13662 said:
Third I have yet to see any tesla get over 200 miles range in 15 min even from a supercharger. And depending on battery used is usually only from 20-80% charge in the 15 min. Honestly at superchargers I got roughly 150 miles range average in 15 min. Give it 5 years and we will be seeing 300ish miles in 15 min. But current technology is too inefficient on both charger and battery side.
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  • 250 kW
  • Video shows 50% SOC, 198 mi., at 15:00.37 minutes (7:36 in video)
    • 51% SOC, 201.96 mi., at 15:12.44 charge time
Tommyb13662 said:
Ev needs standards like their gasoline counterparts. Standard swapable batteries, standard battery sizes, standard charging systems. Sure competition breeds inovation but the reality is currently the customer is suffering while the companies fight to try to make their standard win.
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Competition is the bane of CCS-1 compared to Tesla. Until the CCS-1 EV makers begin deploying their own CCS-1 chargers, 24x7, it will remain a flawed technology. EVgo is too slow and EA too unreliable.

Untitled 3.webp

Bob Wilson
 
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I need some help with Tesla Apps I own 2021 Kona EV Ultimate . I need know how use Tesla Apps to show all available destiation charges. My Kona with latest software is not doing that.
 
Tommyb13662 said:
Its just not viable if you have only on street parking and have to rely on public charging.
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It is viable, and not difficult, if you have to rely on public charging. I did it for over 2 years with a Nissan Leaf, and only changed when I bought a cottage and would need more than just city driving. I would charge up for an hour and fill my battery once a week in summer, and twice a week in winter. A very small accommodation to make, in my opinion, in order to drive electric. However, it does take a bit of a paradigm shift: one has to be prepared for spending that time and not resent it. For instance, I realized I spend at least an hour on the computer with my emails and reading the papers -- that's an hour I could be spending on my phone in my car with little discomfort. There are people who spend an hour or two in laundromats if they can't have laundry machines at home, and I decided this was no different -- I would spend time at the charging station because I couldn't have an EVSE at home. But you have to mentally accept that the pros of driving electric are worth the cons of spending an hour or two a week at an charging station, so that you're willing to change your habits and make the time.

That's all it took - an hour or two at a DC Fast Charger; now I live in a condo building with a public L2 charger in the parking area, so I can go to my apartment while it charges, but it takes a lot longer with an L2 rather than an L3. No, they don't recommend charging at L3 all the time, which I usually did with my Leaf, but I was OK with my battery lasting only 13 years instead of 15 or 17.
 
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Calliope said:
That's all it took - an hour or two at a DC Fast Charger; now I live in a condo building with a public L2 charger in the parking area, so I can go to my apartment while it charges, but it takes a lot longer with an L2 rather than an L3. No, they don't recommend charging at L3 all the time, which I usually did with my Leaf, but I was OK with my battery lasting only 13 years instead of 15 or 17.
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I used public charging for 5 years for my Leaf. There was a L2 about a 15 minute walk away and a DCFC downtown also about a 15 minute drive away. The L2 provided a chance to walk the dog and the DCFC allowed me to catch up on my New Yorker subscription reading (actually you never catch up!) and walk the dog.
 
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