Don’t forget, those same legislators also made it possible you to not pay sales tax on $25,000 of the cars value, which reduced your overall cost by more than $2,000.
Sometimes it’s the chicken, sometimes it’s the feathers.
Was the battery ever charged while sitting on the lot?
- Thread starter Sailorman
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Don’t forget, those same legislators also made it possible you to not pay sales tax on $25,000 of the cars value, which reduced your overall cost by more than $2,000.
Sometimes it’s the chicken, sometimes it’s the feathers.
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
You do realize that the Battle Born, Renogy and Victron LFP batteries all have a built in BMS that protects from over charging and from complete discharge. Again, the built in BMS is protecting the battery. Built in BMS is also found in all the li-ion battery pulls from medical equipment, for one example, that a lot of the DIY crowd are using to make their own hybrid solar backup systems.
So in cases of Li-ion batteries with BMS you are charging to 100% usable/allowable capacity, not the absolute capacity. Victron claims a 2,000 deep not complete cycle life and states that discharge below a certain threshold voltage will damage the cells.
The BMS and/or charge controller sets upper and lower voltage limits and this reduces the total capacity in order to protect the cells (mostly from dendritic formation).
Currently, there is no Li-ion battery that can be repeatedly charged to its native total capacity and then discharged below a certain point (most state 2.5-3V) and maintain a useful life. Although that capability is the Holy Grail of current battery chemistry research. There are plenty of sources on Li/ion battery tech available and all will say the same thing on discharge cycles.
If you want to call what the BMS restricts a 100% discharge, then have at it. I won’t quibble over semantics. I’m just happy we have batteries, BMS, charge controllers, and cooling systems designed to give us a dependable, useful long battery life. And I’ll be ecstatic when Li-ion batteries significantly come down in price and their energy density increases.
Besides, don’t you think all the EV manufacturers would jump on being able to gain ~20-25% more range or save weight and cost if they could forgo the BMS and 1/4 of the batteries by using 100% of the battery pack’s capacity? The haven’t, because no battery would last for the 3 to 4K cycles needed to last the 10 years of the warranty.
If it were possible...
For the Clarity, that would be 14.1 to 14.4 kWh x .92 inverter efficiency/17 total, or ~23% improvement and that would raise the EPA range from 48 to 60 miles EV range approximately.
Of course they have a BMS. And of course there is a certain amount of semantics involved here.
Many of the battery manufacturers specifically state 0% and 100% SOC along with 2000-5000 charge cycles, in the same sentence. They include charts and graphs as well.
This all harkens back to some owners feverishly controlling their charging so as never to go over 80-90%, according to the HL app, and never draining the battery to the dreaded 2 bars. What Honda/Panasonic, or any other battery manufacturer calls 0-100% isn’t really 0-100%. But it is as far as we’re concerned. To me not charging to full is equivalent to not filling the gas tank at a gas station.
In the case of a Clarity, even if it is driven in EV down to 2 bars, the ICE will engage and maintain a SOC between 0-4%, which is realistically 15-20%. The car could sit for 6 months at 15% and probably only drop to 10%. The OP’s car is 2 months old and had 15 miles on the odometer prior to a fully charged test drive.
We really can’t hurt these batteries by using them to their fully capacity as allowed by Honda.
Technobody
New Member
Landshark, Yes, that same body of law makers instituted the sales tax discount, I actually saved 2800. I am ok with the tax in lieu of me paying at the gas pump, just I am believer in paying for what you use, and someday the technology will be there so those that drive the most pay the most. It was the Tax on Hybrids that is bewildering, this State is wanting to promote green energy, and to use as little gas as possible, and then turns around and punishes those that are trying to use less gas. There are some non hybrids that get as much or better mpg, so why not tax them as well?
To Kentucky and Landshark and others, thanks for the battery info. Learned more about batteries from those replies. I wish Apple would have battery management that did not charge to high or drain to low on their phones and laptops. I have asked the dealership to do the battery capacity test. I am thinking I will get one done every year when I come in for service, I would like to track the capacity drop
I am picking up the Clarity in a couple of hours, won't be able to drive for 6 weeks or so, had my right foot operated on last Friday, so a friend is driving my wife and I down to the dealership.
To Kentucky and Landshark and others, thanks for the battery info. Learned more about batteries from those replies. I wish Apple would have battery management that did not charge to high or drain to low on their phones and laptops. I have asked the dealership to do the battery capacity test. I am thinking I will get one done every year when I come in for service, I would like to track the capacity drop
I am picking up the Clarity in a couple of hours, won't be able to drive for 6 weeks or so, had my right foot operated on last Friday, so a friend is driving my wife and I down to the dealership.
KentuckyKen
Well-Known Member
Sorry to hear about your foot and sorry to give you even more bad news.
Once she drives it home for the first time, you’ll never get it back and she’ll rarely let you drive it. Yeah, it’s that good a car and a deal! Better start looking for another one.
It’s sort of along the lines of: What they give they can take away.
We had a Prius from 2004-13. When we bought it there was a Federal tax credit or rebate of $2000. Shortly after our purchase the Feds were foaming at the mouth trying to propose a tax on it, because we were getting 50mpg and weren’t buying as much gas (paying gas tax) as everybody else. What your experiencing isn’t new, it’s SOP for the geniuses that have been put in charge.
There is a longstanding debate on the fact that EV’s/PHEV’s use no gas, or considerably less gas than ICE cars, and are therefore paying little or no fuel taxes, which are rumored to be used to pay for road maintenance.
A fee based on mileage could be as easy as reporting mileage when renewing registration. What would be equitable? Basing the fee on a 15mpg car? 25mpg, 35mpg, 50mpg? Many Ev owners will go into a tailspin over the concept.
I’d like to see fuel prices based on a vehicles MPG. Put a chip in the fill tube and if it’s a 15mpg SUV or 500hp sedan, the price is $7.50/gal, 50mpg Prius, the price is $2.00/gal. It doesn’t solve the EV road tax fee issue, but it may have an effect on what Americans drive.
I have other good ides too, like pulling the icebergs out of the ocean to lower sea levels. Then, take them to areas stricken by drought.
Kentucky, Yes, she drove it home, had not seen it or test driven it, somewhat of a gamble on my part, as my reason for buying it was for it to be a car for both of us to drive so as to keep from putting miles on the the 2000 Lexus and the 90 chevy Truck so they would last another decade or three, or until we go to be home with our father, whichever came first. (We are pretty reluctant to buy things that depreciate in value). So if she did not like it, I would have been in the dog house for a long time. Anyway, she liked the seat, and how it drove, and so it will be the first choice to drive for each of us, whomever has to drive the farthest. So, even if she is out in it and I need to go somewhere, the Lexus GS 300 is a pretty good consolation prize for me, I never got to drive it because it was her car, I had to drive the truck, even if she was not going to be using the car!!
Landshark, Your idea of just reporting miles each year is a good one. Mileage, and the heavier the vehicle, the higher the tax rate, as it is the weight that impacts the roads.
Landshark, Your idea of just reporting miles each year is a good one. Mileage, and the heavier the vehicle, the higher the tax rate, as it is the weight that impacts the roads.
When we picked up the Clarity the other night, the salesman did not have the PDI, nor the battery capacity test, which I was very specific about prior to coming down. I am still waiting.
I tried using the search feature on this forum to learn about battery capacity tests, but no joy, google did the job though. Found the thread where someone had posted their 5 page report. https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/battery-capacity-test-results.5836/
Wow, lots of info, it is comforting to know that the diagnostics are so sophisticated. It is much more than a capacity test.
Page 1 lists the capacity as 55.1 amp hours. Voltage is listed on two pages, 293 volts. Using an online calculator, the result was 16.2 kWH's.
Has anyone else had this capacity test done?
I tried using the search feature on this forum to learn about battery capacity tests, but no joy, google did the job though. Found the thread where someone had posted their 5 page report. https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/battery-capacity-test-results.5836/
Wow, lots of info, it is comforting to know that the diagnostics are so sophisticated. It is much more than a capacity test.
Page 1 lists the capacity as 55.1 amp hours. Voltage is listed on two pages, 293 volts. Using an online calculator, the result was 16.2 kWH's.
Has anyone else had this capacity test done?
The nominal cell voltage is 3.7. There are 84 cells wired in series. There are 2, 84 cell batteries wired in parallel. This makes the nominal voltage 311.
311v x 55.1aH = 17.1kWh.
Your batteries were below the nominal voltage. 293v/84 cells = 3.5v
293v x 55.1aH = 16.1kWh
The targeted charging voltage is just under 4.1v. 4.1 x 55.1 = 18.9kWh.
The kWh number will fluctuate with the voltage. The aH number is what we’d like to see remain consistent over time. It can be measured by performing a timed load test.
I’ve seen the Panasonic made, Clarity battery rated at both 27aH and 28aH. Multiply that by 2 batteries in parallel and we get 54-56aH. Yours is in the middle at 55.1.
Landshark, thanks much. I have this conversation over on the Clarity owners forum as well, would it be ok for me to copy your last post and post it over there? What I learned from one of the members there is that the aH reading is from the Clarities internal diagnostics. I was thinking it was some kind of a load test the shops diagnostics machine put on the battery. That was good news, as over time, with periodic testing, I can gauge the life of my battery pretty accurately, as I plan on owning much longer than ten years.
That link was for someone else's Clarity they bought after being on the Lot for many months, so maybe the battery ran down by never being plugged in and the result was voltage below nominal range?
That link was for someone else's Clarity they bought after being on the Lot for many months, so maybe the battery ran down by never being plugged in and the result was voltage below nominal range?
Yes, you can share my post on the other form.
Is that forum another InsideEV’s forum or something separate?
I attempted to join another forum a few months ago but kept receiving a message about the site being unable to verify identities, or something along those lines.
Is that forum another InsideEV’s forum or something separate?
I attempted to join another forum a few months ago but kept receiving a message about the site being unable to verify identities, or something along those lines.
Landshark, Thank you. Below is the link to that sight, I had no problem joining. As a forum, it is pretty muscular, lots of different thread categories. They can really get into the weeds on many different subjects. What I like about this one, Insidevs, is it covers the whole electric motor vehicle spectrum.
https://www.clarityforum.com
https://www.clarityforum.com
Clarity Dave
Member
Although multiplying amp-hours by volts looks about right, it's not strictly correct, because lithium-ion battery discharge isn't linear. This image was plucked from a post by DucRider in another thread (https://www.insideevsforum.com/community/index.php?threads/battery-capacity-test-results.5836/page-4). Once the cells get significantly below 3V, you won't draw much current from them (and you'll risk permanent damage).
You might find reading through the thread interesting, Sailorman.
I cited this article somewhere in the thread, and found it useful reading:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Table 4 to me was interesting. It says that if you cap cell voltages at 3.9V instead of 4V, battery life expressed in charge cycles doubles. There are many grains of salt to be taken here -- variations in battery chemistry, what end of life meant for the batteries tested, etc. -- but I fully expect that Honda traded away some battery life for higher EV range, since they don't expect the typical owner to own the car for ten years or more.
And apropos to battery life, this article turned up in my feed this morning:
https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/
I haven't drilled down into the data on which it's based except to see that no Honda Claritys are in the dataset, though there are other PHEVs among the EVs.
As for our Clarity, Honda of Bellevue didn't provide me with the capacity number in the PDI report when we bought the car in May 2018, and at its A01 service in May 2019, the tech I talked to midunderstood what I wanted and by the time I learned it wasn't done, it was too late in the day and I needed to take the car home. In October 2019, after our long trip, I had another service and they finally read the battery capacity: 51.7 Ah, which would be a 6% drop from the nominal. I was a bit bummed about that, though we get plenty of range: around 40 miles in our current Seattle weather of mid-forties Fahrenheit, and 50-60 miles real range in the summer.
I generally charged to Honda's 100% (following the manual and some early recommendations which I'm not sure I can find now). In particular, I did leave the battery fully charged for a 5 week period while we were overseas, so that might have dinged the capacity.
But I also don't know what the capacity was when the car left the lot. The dealer is relatively PHEV-savvy (for a Honda dealer, which is a pretty low bar) and the car had plenty of charge when we test drove it, so I'm optimistic they didn't let the battery go to zero in the 3 months from manufacture to sale.
I also wonder how much we should trust the capacity number the car tells us. As Landshark says, it's likely based on a measure of voltage drop as a function of loss of charge (time multiplied by average current), but is it continuously measuring discharge current or just for intervals? If the latter, at what point(s) in the discharge curve? How accurately? How many measurements is it averaging? Is battery temperature taken into account (i.e. does the capacity number drop in the winter and rise again in the summer)?
Here's hoping Autel comes through with a reasonably cheap OBD-II tool that displays capacity so we can see the number more frequently.
You might find reading through the thread interesting, Sailorman.
I cited this article somewhere in the thread, and found it useful reading:
https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries
Table 4 to me was interesting. It says that if you cap cell voltages at 3.9V instead of 4V, battery life expressed in charge cycles doubles. There are many grains of salt to be taken here -- variations in battery chemistry, what end of life meant for the batteries tested, etc. -- but I fully expect that Honda traded away some battery life for higher EV range, since they don't expect the typical owner to own the car for ten years or more.
And apropos to battery life, this article turned up in my feed this morning:
https://electrek.co/2019/12/14/8-lessons-about-ev-battery-health-from-6300-electric-cars/
I haven't drilled down into the data on which it's based except to see that no Honda Claritys are in the dataset, though there are other PHEVs among the EVs.
As for our Clarity, Honda of Bellevue didn't provide me with the capacity number in the PDI report when we bought the car in May 2018, and at its A01 service in May 2019, the tech I talked to midunderstood what I wanted and by the time I learned it wasn't done, it was too late in the day and I needed to take the car home. In October 2019, after our long trip, I had another service and they finally read the battery capacity: 51.7 Ah, which would be a 6% drop from the nominal. I was a bit bummed about that, though we get plenty of range: around 40 miles in our current Seattle weather of mid-forties Fahrenheit, and 50-60 miles real range in the summer.
I generally charged to Honda's 100% (following the manual and some early recommendations which I'm not sure I can find now). In particular, I did leave the battery fully charged for a 5 week period while we were overseas, so that might have dinged the capacity.
But I also don't know what the capacity was when the car left the lot. The dealer is relatively PHEV-savvy (for a Honda dealer, which is a pretty low bar) and the car had plenty of charge when we test drove it, so I'm optimistic they didn't let the battery go to zero in the 3 months from manufacture to sale.
I also wonder how much we should trust the capacity number the car tells us. As Landshark says, it's likely based on a measure of voltage drop as a function of loss of charge (time multiplied by average current), but is it continuously measuring discharge current or just for intervals? If the latter, at what point(s) in the discharge curve? How accurately? How many measurements is it averaging? Is battery temperature taken into account (i.e. does the capacity number drop in the winter and rise again in the summer)?
Here's hoping Autel comes through with a reasonably cheap OBD-II tool that displays capacity so we can see the number more frequently.
Hi Clarity Dave,
Thanks for the info. Honda of Kirkland and Honda of Bellevue have the same owners, and they seem to be the only dealer in the Puget Sound that are interested in the Clarity for some reason.
I am not very knowledgeable about electronics, just the basics from physics classes. I think Landshark will be intrigued though.
Can I copy your post over to the Clarity owners sight?
I am wondering why you have concern about leaving it plugged in. Does not the Clarity stop giving the battery juice at 70 to 80 percent of full charge? And on the other end, stops using the battery at 20 or 30 percent?
(I can not remember the exact figures from something I read recently about this)
Thanks for the idea of an inexpensive diagnostic tool, I will keep my eye out.
Thanks for the links to those sights with info on batteries.
Thanks for the info. Honda of Kirkland and Honda of Bellevue have the same owners, and they seem to be the only dealer in the Puget Sound that are interested in the Clarity for some reason.
I am not very knowledgeable about electronics, just the basics from physics classes. I think Landshark will be intrigued though.
Can I copy your post over to the Clarity owners sight?
I am wondering why you have concern about leaving it plugged in. Does not the Clarity stop giving the battery juice at 70 to 80 percent of full charge? And on the other end, stops using the battery at 20 or 30 percent?
(I can not remember the exact figures from something I read recently about this)
Thanks for the idea of an inexpensive diagnostic tool, I will keep my eye out.
Thanks for the links to those sights with info on batteries.
Clarity Dave
Member
When we were car shopping, there were Claritys available at several dealers. We test drove one at Honda of Kirkland and looked at one in Burien; at the time, South Tacoma and Klein Honda (Everett) claimed to have them as well. At this point, though, I think only Kirkland and Bellevue seem to be overcoming Honda's barriers to entry and actually order and obtain cars without having a specific customer.
Feel free to forward the post to another forum. Thanks for asking.
You can find a lot of advice to "just plug it in and don't worry about it" and unless you really want to try to stretch battery life by all means necessary, that's probably the best thing to do. Otherwise, you might want to avoid exposing the car to high temperatures, favor smaller, more frequent charging sessions, and I'm not sure what else -- there's lots of conflicting advice about how to prolong lithium-ion battery life out there.
Be that as it may, it does seem that Honda traded battery life for greater usable capacity, and I wish they'd offered the option of having charging stop at a lower voltage level for those of us who don't need the full range every day. The ODB-II printouts posted in the thread I cited in Post #34 indicate Honda's set point. For instance, post #2 contained a JPG photo of a printout that list Cell Voltage Limit During Plug-In Charging as 4139.8 mV (later posts include multi-page PDFs that show the state of charge and the voltage of each individual cell). The 4.15V level in table 2 of the batteryuniversity article says you get 400-700 discharge cycles of battery life -- although, again, I'm not sure what that means for the HV battery in our cars. But consider, say, a maximum of 3.90V that yields 2400-4000 discharge cycles. It's not something I obsess about, but if I could prolong battery life and still drive all-electric in day-to-day driving, I would.
I have a degree in electrical engineering and spent my working years writing software for electronic test and measurement equipment, which doesn't make me infallible on topics electrical, but I know a thing or two.
Hi Clarity Dave,
I could not figure out how to copy the image over to the Clarity forum, thanks for the permission though.
Is there a way to send a private message on this forum, I looked, could not find any information as how to do that. This posted reply would have been better to have been a private reply. But since I am posting, and you and others are up on electrical things:
My wife is unhappy that the side mirrors do not auto dim. Being married for over 35 years, I am obligated under the strict rules of long marriages to continue supplying what she is "normally accustomed to" so if anyone can help me out before I have to take up a long inhabitation of the dog house!
I could not find anything except maybe some anti glare films, but could not find any of these that seemed really credible.
I could not figure out how to copy the image over to the Clarity forum, thanks for the permission though.
Is there a way to send a private message on this forum, I looked, could not find any information as how to do that. This posted reply would have been better to have been a private reply. But since I am posting, and you and others are up on electrical things:
My wife is unhappy that the side mirrors do not auto dim. Being married for over 35 years, I am obligated under the strict rules of long marriages to continue supplying what she is "normally accustomed to" so if anyone can help me out before I have to take up a long inhabitation of the dog house!
I could not find anything except maybe some anti glare films, but could not find any of these that seemed really credible.
Clarity Dave
Member
Here's how to send a message to someone on this forum:
* If you have one of their postings handy, click on the avatar or name of the person to whom you want to send a private message (otherwise, click the MEMBERS link at the top of the page and use the search feature to find them).
* In the dialog box that pops up, click Start a Conversation.
* Fill in the subject and message fields, and click Start a Conversation to send it off.
I got nuthin regarding adding an auto-dim feature to the side mirrors, I'm sorry to say (I'd find it useful, too).
* If you have one of their postings handy, click on the avatar or name of the person to whom you want to send a private message (otherwise, click the MEMBERS link at the top of the page and use the search feature to find them).
* In the dialog box that pops up, click Start a Conversation.
* Fill in the subject and message fields, and click Start a Conversation to send it off.
I got nuthin regarding adding an auto-dim feature to the side mirrors, I'm sorry to say (I'd find it useful, too).