Warning Tesla is a cult now, i never thought id find such a Gem.

I see according to the April figures that Model 3 sales have rocketed up from 3820 in the previous month to a massive total of ...er 3875.

As production seems to be at about 2,500 a week, does this mean that about 6,000 of them are clogging dealers showrooms or lined up in a field somewhere, or have they been exported?
 
Well, whatever the minutiae behind the figures, it doesn't seem as if the Model 3 is being sold in very large quantities despite a third of the year having gone by.

I predict another gee-whiz launch of something of doubtful feasibility from Musk in the near future in order to keep the investment funds a-flowing!
 
Well, whatever the minutiae behind the figures, it doesn't seem as if the Model 3 is being sold in very large quantities despite a third of the year having gone by.

EV bashers, like you, keep moving the goal posts for what constitutes significant amount of EV sales. It won't be many years before you're claiming that EV sales aren't significant because they're still not outselling the sum total of all gasmobiles worldwide!

Oh, Tesla just passed China's BYD in selling the most EVs per month:

"Global Plug-In Electric Car Sales Hit 140,000 In March, Tesla #1"

I wonder how many more months it will be before the Model 3 outsells the sum of all the other plug-in EVs sold in the U.S., combined? I suspect we'll see that this year!

Go-Tesla_Logo_med.webp
 
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Tesla has always been in the midst of controversies. Given the recent events (car crash, lawsuit on Semi, Model 3 target delay, employee safety), it is inevitable to think the company is failing... Hope Musk, as usual, finds a way out of these...
 
Well, the share price is slipping as investors' patience becomes exhausted. And I don't imagine Musk dismissing financial questions about his record $710 million loss in a single quarter - twice what he managed to burn through in the same period last year - as "Boring" will help much either!

If it folds - an event which seems to be growing in probability - I would not be surprised to see battery-powered cars become generally even less popular than they are now. The sad fact is that it's OK to spend big money to make a profit, but it is NOT ok to spend big money and make a loss. Promises are not a substitute for profit.

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Will there be sufficient faithful cult investors to keep it afloat?

Who knows!
 
Well, the share price is slipping as investors' patience becomes exhausted. And I don't imagine Musk dismissing financial questions about his record $710 million loss in a single quarter - twice what he managed to burn through in the same period last year - as "Boring" will help much either!

If it folds - an event which seems to be growing in probability - I would not be surprised to see battery-powered cars become generally even less popular than they are now. The sad fact is that it's OK to spend big money to make a profit, but it is NOT ok to spend big money and make a loss. Promises are not a substitute for profit.

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Will there be sufficient faithful cult investors to keep it afloat?

Who knows!

Man, that was a strange earnings call... I have listened to some tense earnings calls before (2011 BA 787 delays) but never heard a CEO assert himself so strongly. Investors are paying a heavy price for Musk being a baby... Sad...
 
I'm not a follower of him or his cars, but I hope he knows what he's doing. Refusing to address your financial state because it is boring is usually a recipe for disaster.
 
If it folds - an event which seems to be growing in probability...

Dagnabbit! It must be extremely frustrating for Tesla haters, bashers, and short-sellers everywhere. No matter how many times they predict Tesla is about to fail, the company stubbornly grows by leaps and bounds every year!
:p :p :cool:

Tesla’s global automobile sales totals:
2012: 2650
2013: 22,300
2014: 31,655 (+41.95%)
2015: 50,580 (+59.8%)
2016: 76,230 (+50.7%)
2017: 101,312 (+32.9%)

Go-Tesla_Logo_med.webp
 
Anyone can sell more cars if they are continually using investors money to sell them well below their true cost. $20,000 a car last year. Eventually, if it goes on like this, Tesla will go pop.

And if Musk treats his investors with the contempt - as he just has - it will happen sooner rather than later.

I don't wish him or Tesla ill. My advice would be to stop the relentless expansion and to turn a profit with what he has. You cannot go on promising jam tomorow, indefinitely. At some point you have to supply it! The company has so far made a growing loss every year, and looks to double last year's $2 billion loss to £4 billion! The rumblings from investors is growing louder. Musk needs to hear it and take appropriate action. Not by bringing out yet another barely adequate car but by fulfilling what he promises for a change.
 
Anyone can sell more cars if they are continually using investors money to sell them well below their true cost. $20,000 a car last year. Eventually, if it goes on like this, Tesla will go pop.

And if Musk treats his investors with the contempt - as he just has - it will happen sooner rather than later.

I don't wish him or Tesla ill. My advice would be to stop the relentless expansion and to turn a profit with what he has. You cannot go on promising jam tomorow, indefinitely. At some point you have to supply it! The company has so far made a growing loss every year, and looks to double last year's $2 billion loss to £4 billion! The rumblings from investors is growing louder. Musk needs to hear it and take appropriate action. Not by bringing out yet another barely adequate car but by fulfilling what he promises for a change.

I don't know why any company would stop expanding if they have a huge backload of orders. So stop expanding, what a year and show some money and then even be further behind in demand ?
Its obvious customers and investors r behind them or there wouldn't be 450000 pre orders for just one product of theirs.
I hope they keep expanding for a long time till supply equals demand,
If someone looses faith in the company and sells there shares, I'm sure a lot of other ppl will snap them up very fast, including all the happy owners of Tesla products.
 
Well, I genuinely hope you are right. I really have no interest in seeing any company fail. Schadenfreude simply isn't my thing.

But it sure looks flaky to me and Musk's attitude - whilst I quite like the idea of telling the financial community to go **** itself - seems very ill-advised. Money men are really only interested in money and will pull the plug on the enterprise with zero consideration about the future of EVs, the planet, pollution, or anything else if it makes a profit, or minimises loss. He is playing a dangerous game.
 
Well, I genuinely hope you are right. I really have no interest in seeing any company fail. Schadenfreude simply isn't my thing.

But it sure looks flaky to me and Musk's attitude - whilst I quite like the idea of telling the financial community to go **** itself - seems very ill-advised. Money men are really only interested in money and will pull the plug on the enterprise with zero consideration about the future of EVs, the planet, pollution, or anything else if it makes a profit, or minimises loss. He is playing a dangerous game.
It seams the guys a cleantechnica are thinking the same thing, he's sick of the money men.
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/05/06/147392/
 
Someone might like to calculate how much Musk's petulant outburst has cost his shareholders.

What's happened to the 'hyperloop' by the way? Now that IS a truly ridiculous idea. I imagine that is another money pit.
 
Man, that was a strange earnings call... I have listened to some tense earnings calls before (2011 BA 787 delays) but never heard a CEO assert himself so strongly. Investors are paying a heavy price for Musk being a baby... Sad...
Try going back even further and listen to the last few Enron earnings call. There may be some similarities..

No one has seen the list of 450,000 people. Could Elon be over optimistic in his counting? Time will tell.
if you look at the recent VIN and invites, they are decreasing.
 
Surely, the accounts will be audited and will show 450,000 deposits being held by the company? I can't think that this list is fictional, although there may be cancellations or people no longer interested or indeed a fair number who have died of old age!

Past experience shows that when the management becomes coy about revealing financial details, then that is the time to dig in and investigate further.
 
Surely, the accounts will be audited and will show 450,000 deposits being held by the company? I can't think that this list is fictional...

Right, "TeslaInvestor" is just posting anti-Tesla FUD again. I guess we know why he's here, hmmm? His not-so-hidden agenda of posting B.S., trying to soil Tesla's reputation.

In fact, at the Model 3 "Reveal" event, Elon said something about over half a million Model 3 reservations, but a short time later gave a correction saying that the actual total was about 455,000. I'm not sure where he reported that (perhaps on Twitter?), but it was reported in this Reuters article. So it seems pretty clear that he regards the number as materially significant statement which affects Tesla's corporate performance/financing, and as a corporate officer of a public company he has a duty to avoid making public statements containing incorrect information material to Tesla's business, such as that one.

I'm very far from understanding the intricacies of corporate law and SEC filings, so I don't understand how corporate officers everywhere can get away with so much of the shading and stretching of the truth that's called "spin" and "advertising". But we can be reasonably certain that Tesla execs at least won't exaggerate that number.
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FOR ARCHIVAL PURPOSES ONLY: PUSHMI-PULLYU'S BEV SEMI TRUCK NAPKIN MATH ANALYSIS (AKA "NAPKIN MATH 1.0")

Please note this is a generic analysis, and does not assume the truck is built by Tesla. Altho I did use figures for Tesla's battery pack for reference purposes, my figures did not assume the truck would have the superior streamlining we can expect from Tesla.

(revised May 30, 2017)

FACTS & FIGURES

A modern diesel semi pulling a load gets 6.5 MPG; therefore uses 0.1538 gallons of diesel per mile

1 gallon of diesel contains 40.7 kWh of energy

1 gallon of diesel varies in weight between 6.85lbs. and 7.5lbs per U.S. gallon, depending on temperature. (I'm going to use the figure of 7.1 lbs/gallon)

diesel semi typical engine weight 2880 lbs

Eaton Fuller 18-speed transmission weight 738 lbs

Tesla Roadster upgrade battery pack: 70 kWh in ~10 cubic feet

standard sized semi trailer dimensions: 110" high x 96" wide, or 9.167' x 8'

DOT weight limit for a six-axle semi tractor-trailer: 80,000 lbs

Typical price of a relatively high-end new semi tractor: $150,000

Typical trucker may drive as much as 600-700 miles in a day, and can legally drive up to 11 hours per day.

* * * * *

PREMISES & ASSUMPTIONS

What we need is a BEV battery pack for our semi tractor which will allow it to pull a load for ~750 miles. This should allow the trucker to complete a daily run on one charge. We assume at the end of the run either the battery pack is swapped out for one that's charged up, or the pack is charged during the hours the trucker is sleeping. Either way, we avoid the need for fast charging and very high current.

Our hypothetical BEV semi will have an energy efficiency 2.6 times that of a diesel semi. (An EV car is about 3.5 x as energy efficient as an average gasmobile, but diesel engines are about 30-35% more efficient than gas engines.)

Therefore, our BEV semi pulling a load needs (0.1538 x 40.7 / 2.6 =) 2.4 kWh of energy to run 1 mile.

Estimated weight of a 2016 Tesla battery pack using 18650 cells: 11.5 lbs / kWh

Estimated price for a Tesla battery pack (not just the cells): $180 / kWh

* * * * *

We need to look at three limiting factors for the BEV semi tractor's large battery pack: Space, weight, and cost.

SPACE ANALYSIS

The space behind a long-haul trucker's cab, the space now devoted to storage and sleeping space, is about 4.1 feet long, at least on the diagram I looked at; I'm assuming the height and width are the same as a typical semi trailer. (At least, the dimensions should be close enough for this ballpark estimate.)

Let's use that space for the battery pack. I don't see losing this space as a problem. Since we no longer need a long nose for the diesel engine, which isn't there, we can shove the cabin forward, and leave room for the battery pack behind. The tractor now looks more like a "cab-over" tractor with an extended space behind the cabin, rather than a long-nose tractor.

So I estimate that space at 4.145 x 9.167' x 8' = 303.977 cu.ft.

An upgraded Tesla Roadster's battery pack has 70 kWh and measures ~10 cubic feet.

Assuming a similar configuration, that gives us (303.977 / 10 * 70 =) 2127.8 kWh.

At 2.4 kWh per mile, that's 886.6 miles.

This is comfortably beyond our needs of ~750 miles.

Space isn't an issue.

* * * * *

[analysis too large to fit into one post; continued below]
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That's right. I make no pretense of my analysis being an in-depth one. As I said: Napkin math.


Pushmi,
if you look at the average mpg of the latest diesel semis, you can back into the kwh per mile for the Tesla Semi.
Navistar did a test of 4 trucks in Canada - they got 7.75 mpg average - pulling 65k lbs, they averaged 46.5 mph (100 kmh limit in Quebec?).
Tires were around 0.005 crr.
cd for those trucks is around 0.55 based on DOE data on previous tests.
At 42% BTE (which is the current average for a new Semi / EU data / same engines in US) and 40.3 kwh conversion, that's 2.18 kwh / mile.
About 25% of that goes to various losses, including inertia/braking, auxiliaries, etc.

[btw - Martin Williams and David Green posts above are off on AVERAGE numbers and engineering details, e.g. the Semi has a clever 2 speed axle set-up with a deep starter gear and a cruise gear. You only need <100 kwh to pull a semi on a flat road at 60 mph; again, see DOE numbers. Benchmark for auxiliaries is around 5 kwh on a 2018 ICE semi - see ICCT data for EU trucks - the Semi will probably be lower because you have zip for the air compressor and alternator. As we all know, one has to be careful not to confuse long term AVERAGES with the energy use for one trip across the desert or up over the rockies].

From all this you can triangulate using DOE and IEA data (and by doing the raw calculations) what the air resistance losses and rolling resistance losses are, and get to an average energy use number for the Semi that matches what Tesla has released, no problem.





That's possible. There have been suggestions this truck won't do well climbing steep mountain roads, and if so the Rocky Mountain region would be off-limits.

At any rate, I think it's safe to assume the Tesla Semi Truck will not have a multi-gear transmission. Will that limit its maximum grade? Well yes, but then diesel semi trucks are also limited to a maximum grade, altho it may be a different figure.



Entirely incorrect. About 90% of semi loads are less than maximum weight. Most loads, by far, have space/volume rather than weight as the limit. If Tesla's market is limited to that 90%, that's not much of a restriction! The restriction on range is a much bigger limit, but even there, the majority of freight hauling runs are less than 500 miles.

Let us please remember that the Tesla Semi Truck does not have to replace 100% of diesel semi trucks on Day 1 of sales. It will be quite enough if that truck can get a firm toe in the market, and prove that BEV semi trucks can compete successfully with diesel semi trucks for over-the-road freight hauling, even if it's only on certain routes and in certain regions. As BEV tech continues to improve, so will the ability of BEV semi trucks to compete.



The figures for charging a 2 MWh battery (actually, my estimate was 1.8 MWh) are rather irrelevant to the Tesla Semi Truck, since Tesla is only claiming a 500 mile range for the long-range version, not the ~750 miles I assumed in my "Napkin Math 1.0" analysis.



Tesla has cited a price of 7¢/kWh for electricity for charging its Semi Trucks, and it's probably no coincidence that this is very slightly more than the average industrial rate for electricity in the USA. I infer that Tesla will be restricting installation of its "Megachargers", as it calls them, to industrial areas where high-power hookups are already available.

This FUD that an electrical substation will need to be located right next to every Megacharger is pretty silly. Large skyscrapers can draw up to 10 MW, and a single electrical induction furnace can draw up to 42 MW! Estimates for the draw of a Megacharger range from about 1.2 MW to 1.4 MW. It has been speculated, based on the number of holes in the plug for the Tesla Semi Truck, that it will charge at 800 volts, so that will reduce the need for large cables as compared to the 125-145 volt charging of Tesla Superchargers.



Well, we can just add that to the growing list of subjects where you deliberately choose to ignore facts. The real world doesn't care if you believe it exists or not.
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Man, you guys are so deep into this analysis. Way higher then my pay grade... Lets just wait and see if Tesla does some demonstration of the Semi's capabilities. On the motors, it looks to me that they are using a standard axle, and replacing the 3rd member with their drive unit, this should be the most efficient way to do that. I do not think it will be a 2 speed setup since they will likely limit speed to 60MPH as most fleet trucks already do. The battery will be much heavier then the diesel engine, transmission, driveshaft, and fuel. some things you guys are missing, are the heating/cooling of the cab, battery, air compressor for the brakes, lights, comunications, all of which run off the battery, in addition to propelling the truck. Another thing to remember, with limited chargers, the truck will never reach its full range because of the charger locations. Now on I-90 here in WA state, there are way over 100 trucks per hour passing each way, lets assume 20% are EV at some point in the future, where do they all stop, and charge? Substation? They will need to stop at Grand Coulee Dam. Tesla has a great opportunity to prove their semi on the GF! to Fremont route, why are they not running them every day in test?


David,
the axle is a 2 speed; it has different ratios for each motor (2 of them). I suspect each has a disconnect clutch so the truck can run on one or both depending on the driving demands of the moment. Its clever, and as efficient as you can imagine is possible.

The kwh energy use for a ICE semi is about 5 kwh for auxiliaries (air compressor, engine cooling fan, alternator, steering pump, HVAC; this number does not include the water or oil pump for the engine or gearbox) - see ICCT data on EU trucks - same engines and gearboxes on the majority of US trucks.

Mark my words, the 300 mile Tesla Semi will weigh about the same as a conventional truck. You have about 6k lbs of ICE components that go away, and what you replace it with weighs close to the same (mostly batteries; the motors/inverters and power electronics don't weigh much). Folks keep over-estimating the weight of the battery packs in the Semi because they are using 2012 Model S packs as a benchmark, and not accounting for improvements in energy density that are going to reduce the weight per battery pack.
 
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