Unitarians

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So what about all the people before Christ, incl those who believed in God? Did their sins get forgiven, and did they go to heaven?
All the Jews who had faith in God prior to Christ's birth are in heaven. This is something that is discussed in the Book of Hebrews. The book of Romans was written to Gentiles and the Book of Hebrews was written to Jews. For whatever reason the book of Hebrews doesn't seem to get referred to a lot, even though it lays out the most concrete argument for salvation by faith, at least to me. The book of Hebrews is a pretty amazing read if you know the old testament well - granted they all are, but still. lol.

For that matter, what about all the people around the world that never heard of Jesus or had access to Christian beliefs? Do they all end up in hell?
For all intents and purposes, yes. This is because all people groups have a common origin, which is why all origin myths have overarching similarities. What happened is that these people groups early on rejected God and started worshiping themselves, demons, or invented false gods. In short, all people have had access to the whole truth in ancient times, but their hardened hearts turned them from the truth - even to the current generations. This can be observed based on the receptiveness to the Gospel by any and all peoples who are not Christian.
 
Since we are talking about religion, I think, here is a question for both of you. What does it take to go to heaven? And if you don't, does that mean you go to hell?
Jesus said:
  • But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
  • Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
  • And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
So I am not terribly worried about what happens after my death. My affairs are in order (i.e., the woman I love is listed on our house deed.) The house is about 90% there for energy efficiency and I have plans to reduce utilities even more. So if I die within a few minutes, it won't be with any regret. Meanwhile, I have given away a lot to those in need and strangers in our country.

So this is what it means to be a Unitarian who does not care if someone says "Lo here! or lo there!" The legalese of "Christian" dogma has no effect on my heart, mind, or soul. They scamper about looking for something to "interpret" to justify their wicked ways. Yes, Jesus took a whip to the temple grounds.

Bob Wilson
 
All the Jews who had faith in God prior to Christ's birth are in heaven. This is something that is discussed in the Book of Hebrews. The book of Romans was written to Gentiles and the Book of Hebrews was written to Jews. For whatever reason the book of Hebrews doesn't seem to get referred to a lot, even though it lays out the most concrete argument for salvation by faith, at least to me. The book of Hebrews is a pretty amazing read if you know the old testament well - granted they all are, but still. lol.


For all intents and purposes, yes. This is because all people groups have a common origin, which is why all origin myths have overarching similarities. What happened is that these people groups early on rejected God and started worshiping themselves, demons, or invented false gods. In short, all people have had access to the whole truth in ancient times, but their hardened hearts turned them from the truth - even to the current generations. This can be observed based on the receptiveness to the Gospel by any and all peoples who are not Christian.
But what about all the indigenous people, even on other continents. They had no way of knowing about Jesus or the God that we are referring to.
 
This Unitarian understands that many great and minor faiths have elements of what Jesus taught us. It is not universal any more or less than the Kingdom of God.

My Universalists brethren believe God would find a way to grant them into their heaven. But for me, is is a question of living this life as Jesus taught regardless of who or which faith teaches.

Bob Wilson
 
This Unitarian understands that many great and minor faiths have elements of what Jesus taught us. It is not universal any more or less than the Kingdom of God.

My Universalists brethren believe God would find a way to grant them into their heaven. But for me, is is a question of living this life as Jesus taught regardless of who or which faith teaches.

Bob Wilson
So if I understand you, you will go to heaven if you live a good life? In other words, you don't need to personally accept Jesus as your saviour.
 
So if I understand you, you will go to heaven if you live a good life? In other words, you don't need to personally accept Jesus as your saviour.
Living a virtuous life brings us into the Kingdom of God.

As for after death, ask me then. It is less important than decisions made every living day.

Bob Wilson
 
But what about all the indigenous people, even on other continents. They had no way of knowing about Jesus or the God that we are referring to.
That is what the second part is about. It is very clear in scripture that salvation comes through faith in Christ. The first commandment is also very clear that belief in false idols is a sin too. It is also clear that God saves who He chooses to save. God has already preordained who will be saved - eg who will be in heaven - which also means who won't be in heaven are essentially predestined to go to hell. For whatever reason the catholics call this double predestination and its not really clear why.

Yeah, I know that sounds harsh to modern ears and I struggled with this once too, but then I realized I was judging God, who is perfectly just and is still perfectly loving, and I also kind of realized it was kind of dumb. The issue wasn't with what God does, it was with my understanding of God. People who judge God and think they could do better than Him kind of prove that they don't belong in heaven anyways. That type of pride is ultimately what got satan thrown from heaven anyways.

Consider the following. Imagine Person A walks up and punches Person B then apologizes to Person C for the punch. That wouldn't make any sense would it? Forgiveness and restitution for any wrongful action cannot come through a third party. Imagine an extremely wealthy man who is extremely generous with his money. Gives 10s of billions to charity or something a year. Then that man r*pes a woman. That rich man could donate a trillion dollars to charity and it wouldn't erase that r*pe. He could give a trillion to the woman he r*ped, and it wouldn't unr*pe her. He could follow the to the T the letter of the laws for restitution and sacrifice outlined in the Old Testament and even they wouldn't perfectly cover for his sin. The only means for perfect restitution and perfect forgiveness of sin comes through the death and resurrection of Christ. The God of the universe stepped down into creation to take the place of sinners for the punishment of sin, fulfilling promises He made to Abraham in Genesis. Without Christ, there is no salvation. Without Christ, there is no forgiveness or restitution.


So if I understand you, you will go to heaven if you live a good life? In other words, you don't need to personally accept Jesus as your saviour.
This is the correct way to interpret what Bob wrote and its why I keep saying he's not a Christian. lol. The very core essence of what it means to be a Christian is to wholly cling to Christ and His promises. You actually have to believe that the Triune Christian God is the one and only True God.

What does it mean to be a "good person"? Presumably following the teachings of Jesus, like he's implying right? What are the teachings of Jesus? Is it reading all of what He said in the Gospels and the surrounding context and reading the Books of Scripture Jesus quoted to further understand what Jesus's teachings mean with prayers and supplications to the Holy Spirit to help understand to the best of your ability that God has given you? No, that's "legalism". lol

So what does Bob think the teachings of Jesus are? Who knows? Its always vague appeals to non-concrete things or terms like "good" that don't really mean anything without context - you know, explaining what he thinks the teachings of Jesus are. This discussion has happened off and on for years and Bob has never DMed me and said "Hey kid, you seem mildly autistic, I don't actually believe this nonsense, its just an internet persona for fun." So, this leads me to conclude he actually believes, well, something that doesn't align with scripture or even make sense. If this all ended up being a troll, total gold star. Wouldn't even be mad.

If you go and look at the front page of the "church" he claims to attend, the first ting you see is a creed for progressive politics. Most of which directly violate what Jesus taught. lol
 
This Unitarian understands that many great and minor faiths have elements of what Jesus taught us. It is not universal any more or less than the Kingdom of God.

My Universalists brethren believe God would find a way to grant them into their heaven. But for me, is is a question of living this life as Jesus taught regardless of who or which faith teaches.
Living a virtuous life brings us into the Kingdom of God.

As for after death, ask me then. It is less important than decisions made every living day.

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That is what the second part is about. It is very clear in scripture that salvation comes through faith in Christ.
This sounds too easy. So, if I sin (any sin) and just ask for forgiveness, and accept Jesus as my saviour, I go to heaven? No atonement necessary? What about habitual criminals who rape, kill, steal, multiple times? As long as they ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus each time, they are cleared to go to heaven?

Also, is it necessary to publicly declare your faith in Jesus?

It would help if you could back up your answers with scripture quotes.
 
The first questions you ask here mirror exactly what is covered in Romans in the same order you asked them. Even the questions you asked prior. This is partly why I recommend reading the Book of Romans. I'll pull some scripture to answer the first questions too. This may get a little long because I will be pulling block quotes of scripture so I can avoid taking it out of context. A pet peeve of mine is seeing snippets of verse taken out of context, so I generally like block quotes.

In Romans 1, Paul describes how there is no excuse for anyone to reject God because there is sufficient evidence for people to see and that He gave them up to their own desires for worshiping false idols. Here Paul outlines all manners of wickedness that men practice against each other and against God. All of which is the direct product of the fall.

Romans 1

God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness

[18] For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [19] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [20] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [21] For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [22] Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [23] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

[24] Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [25] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

[26] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [27] and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

[28] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [29] They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [30] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [31] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [32] Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. (ESV)



In contrast to the first chapter, Paul then describes here in Chapter 2 that both Jews and non-Jews have the law written on their hearts - not the full law but a general understanding that right and wrong is a thing. Both the Jew who is aware of God's Law and the non-Jew who is not fully aware of God's Law will initially be held account to their respective standards. In short, the knowledge of God's Law doesn't save people, but obeying it completely does. However, as we will see in Chapter 3, nobody is capable of doing so. For all have fallen short of the Glory of God. Hence salvation for anyone requires the blood of Christ to serve as atonement, which is alluded to in Romans 3:21-25.
Romans 2

God’s Righteous Judgment

[6] He will render to each one according to his works: [7] to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; [8] but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. [9] There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, [10] but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. [11] For God shows no partiality.

God’s Judgment and the Law

[12] For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. [13] For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. [14] For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. [15] They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them [16] on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

This sounds too easy. So, if I sin (any sin) and just ask for forgiveness, and accept Jesus as my saviour, I go to heaven? No atonement necessary?
It sounds easy if you haven't accepted Christ yet. For me, its hard. It is quite literally accepting that someone I love - Jesus - dying in my place for sins I committed, even though He is innocent. And He did it out of love. A love I do not deserve and a love I cannot fathom.

So moving onto atonement, you can see that the atonement for sin is mentioned here in Romans 3:21-25, like I was describing above. In the Old Testament, the blood in the animals used for sacrifice was considered the atonement for sin, like this verse in Leviticus states. I wont bore you with massive block quotes of Levitical sacrifice laws, so I included this block quote from Hebrews that summarizes it better. Christ, who is God Himself, is the perfect sacrifice Whose blood serves as the atonement for all forgiven sins. This is even evident by Jesus being referred to as the Lamb of God too. I think these verses should answer your question on atonement.
Romans 3
God’s Righteousness Upheld

[1] Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? [2] Much in every way. To begin with, the Jews were entrusted with the oracles of God. [3] What if some were unfaithful? Does their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? [4] By no means! Let God be true though every one were a liar, as it is written,

“That you may be justified in your words,
and prevail when you are judged.”


[5] But if our unrighteousness serves to show the righteousness of God, what shall we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) [6] By no means! For then how could God judge the world? [7] But if through my lie God’s truth abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? [8] And why not do evil that good may come?—as some people slanderously charge us with saying. Their condemnation is just.

No One Is Righteous

[9] What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, [10] as it is written:

None is righteous, no, not one;
[11] no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
[12] All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
[13] “Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive.”
“The venom of asps is under their lips.”
[14] “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.”
[15] “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
[16] in their paths are ruin and misery,
[17] and the way of peace they have not known.”
[18] “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”


[19] Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. [20] For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.

The Righteousness of God Through Faith

[21] But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—[22] the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: [23] for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, [24] and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, [25] whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. [26] It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

[27] Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. [28] For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. [29] Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, [30] since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. [31] Do we then overthrow the law by this faith? By no means! On the contrary, we uphold the law. (ESV)
Leviticus 17:10–12

Laws Against Eating Blood

[10] “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. [11] For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. [12] Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood. (ESV)
Hebrews 9:11–28

Redemption Through the Blood of Christ

[11] But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things that have come, then through the greater and more perfect tent (not made with hands, that is, not of this creation) [12] he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption. [13] For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh, [14] how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without blemish to God, purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God.

[15] Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant. [16] For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. [17] For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive. [18] Therefore not even the first covenant was inaugurated without blood. [19] For when every commandment of the law had been declared by Moses to all the people, he took the blood of calves and goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, [20] saying, “This is the blood of the covenant that God commanded for you.” [21] And in the same way he sprinkled with the blood both the tent and all the vessels used in worship. [22] Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

[23] Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. [24] For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf. [25] Nor was it to offer himself repeatedly, as the high priest enters the holy places every year with blood not his own, [26] for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. [27] And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment, [28] so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)

Hebrews 10:1–18

Christ’s Sacrifice Once for All

[1] For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. [2] Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sins? [3] But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. [4] For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

[5] Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

“Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
[6] in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
[7] Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.’”


[8] When he said above, “You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings” (these are offered according to the law), [9] then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second. [10] And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[11] And every priest stands daily at his service, offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. [12] But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, [13] waiting from that time until his enemies should be made a footstool for his feet. [14] For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified.

[15] And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying,

[16] “This is the covenant that I will make with them
after those days, declares the Lord:
I will put my laws on their hearts,
and write them on their minds,”


[17] then he adds,

“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”


[18] Where there is forgiveness of these, there is no longer any offering for sin. (ESV)




What about habitual criminals who rape, kill, steal, multiple times? As long as they ask for forgiveness and accept Jesus each time, they are cleared to go to heaven?
If someone claims to be a Christian and they have a consistent pattern of sin and there is no outward sign of conviction to repentance or even outward signs of other fruits of the spirit, then that person is likely not even a Christian.

Romans 6:1–4

Dead to Sin, Alive to God

[1] What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? [3] Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? [4] We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. (ESV)
In short, Christians are supposed to be dead to sin - meaning that there should be a continuing work since justification for a Christian to put away sin. So if there is a continuing pattern of the same types of sins, it is reasonable to question if their acceptance of Christ was genuine. Here it is again mentioned in the Book of Colossians. Very clear directives to put sin to death and to turn from sin. Someone consistently raping and pillaging is not putting sin to death.

Colossians 3:1–17

Put On the New Self

[1] If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. [2] Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. [3] For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. [4] When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

[5] Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: sexual immorality, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. [6] On account of these the wrath of God is coming. [7] In these you too once walked, when you were living in them. [8] But now you must put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, slander, and obscene talk from your mouth. [9] Do not lie to one another, seeing that you have put off the old self with its practices [10] and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge after the image of its creator. [11] Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.

[12] Put on then, as God’s chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassionate hearts, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, [13] bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive. [14] And above all these put on love, which binds everything together in perfect harmony. [15] And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body. And be thankful. [16] Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly, teaching and admonishing one another in all wisdom, singing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, with thankfulness in your hearts to God. [17] And whatever you do, in word or deed, do everything in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him. (ESV)


Also, is it necessary to publicly declare your faith in Jesus?
Yes. This is what the sacrament of baptism is. It is an outward sign of inner faith. There are limitations to things that Christians should do publicly too, one of them is that Christians are not supposed to make a big show about any good works they do, lest that produces pride in them. I can pull verses on that later.
 
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