Too good to be true?
- Thread starter coutinpe
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Robert_Alabama
Well-Known Member
If it is like what I get from my local dealer, it is not a guaranteed offer, just a first expectation for trade-in credit. They will evaluate the car and then provide a hard offer. Again, it isn't a cash offer to buy, just a trade-in credit for a new car. Then they have their mark-up on the new car as a buffer and they don't have to discount if the trade-in credit is unduly high.
megreyhair
Active Member
Those looks like trade-in prices. I got a trade-in offer from Carvana last year or the year before and it was close to $24K for my 18/20K miles . That was like the price I paid for the car. Was really tempted to trade it in and get a new car. But can't with 2 kids in college. Now the offer is down to like $16k or something like that.
Dan Albrich
Well-Known Member
I had sort of passively considered sell or trade Clarity to buy a new RAV4 Prime. I'm very definitely a PHEV fan and not BEV-- at least for my needs. Anyway, with the renewal of the $7500 credit (as you likely already know) there are many cars that don't qualify. I believe at least final assembly has to happen inside the USA. I'm not saying that's a terrible thing, but it does mean 100% of Honda and Toyota at least at the moment do not qualify.
My sister is in the market for a RAV4 hybrid right now, and I had to drop my idea to convince her to go the RAVE4 prime route. Without the rebate the pricing isn't similar.
Also, definite nod to the PHEV Jeep, but my family also tends to buy at the lower-dollars end of the spectrum. i.e. 10K or more does matter to us.
My sister is in the market for a RAV4 hybrid right now, and I had to drop my idea to convince her to go the RAVE4 prime route. Without the rebate the pricing isn't similar.
Also, definite nod to the PHEV Jeep, but my family also tends to buy at the lower-dollars end of the spectrum. i.e. 10K or more does matter to us.
Final assembly in North America is one requirement. Then there is the critical minerals and battery blah blah as well. The Blazer BEV currently qualifies for the $7500 credit. If the Prologue rolls out of the same factory, or another NA factory, it may qualify as well. However, the requirements change again next year.
The Jeep 4xe lineup now only qualifies for a $3750 credit.
In keeping with a long standing tradition our brilliant leaders have devised a plan that does an excellent job of disincentivizing the purchase of vehicles that they are trying to promote.
Dan Albrich
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the Blazer reference. Looks like their MSRP is reasonable especially considering the potential tax break. Not sure I'll advise her to go with any BEV though. Her family only has 1 car. It has to do everything. i.e. including long car trips. She doesn't have a backup vehicle that can use gas (if she goes the BEV route).
Kerbe
Well-Known Member
Right now a 2023 Tesla Model 3 sedan can be had for less than $40K: It's a car that can do everything - including long trips - and has readily available charging infrastructure almost everywhere in the US and Canada.
Dan Albrich
Well-Known Member
I live in Oregon. Each year we drive Eugene to Green Valley AZ. We go through Klamath Falls OR. Amazingly there are super-chargers on that route, but if you use Teslas planner you'll see 5.13 hours of charging (at superchargers). When you are driving 10 hours a day, the stops add up. I typically drive Eugene to Tonopah NV day one (about 10 hours), then do Tenopah NV to Green Valley day two (about 10 hours). It's a lot of driving anyway you slice it, but 5+ hours of charging would turn a 2 day trip into a 3 day trip. Bear in mind, 10 hours of driving requires some food or bathroom breaks. So its definitely more than 10 actual hours as it is.
Kerbe
Well-Known Member
Pretty much the average Supercharger stop lasts about 20 minutes and most Superchargers are near food and comfort facilities so - for me - driving 3 hours and then stopping for 10 minutes is absolutely normal. Adding an extra 10 minutes doesn't strike me as such a bad thing - but I prefer to not actually drive more than 8 or 9 hours in a day so, with breaks, it's more like a 10 or 11 hour day. I really don't understand men (and it's ALWAYS men) who feel they have to drive from Miami to NYC non-stop in one day - it's as if they're asking to stroke-out or, at the very least, develop kidney stones!
Dan Albrich
Well-Known Member
The chargers are not perfectly spaced through a route, especially if you travel in rural western states. I don't know how Telsa's route planner works, but they estimated (on that route) 8 required stops for the trip with 10 min, 20 min, 45 min, 70 min, 65 min, 75 min, 35 min, and 15 minutes charging required. Tesla's route plan counts more time charging than you do. If you really can go from zero to full in 20 minutes or fewer that's impressive, and not what Tesla's app estimates. The long distances between charges is what necessitates a more complete charge for the longer ones noted, I presume.
I have never traveled in an eastern state. All of my travel is in rural western states. There really is a big difference by region.
I have never traveled in an eastern state. All of my travel is in rural western states. There really is a big difference by region.
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Kerbe
Well-Known Member
First off, you don't drive an EV the way you drive an ICE vehicle: You try to never drop below 20% "in the tank" and, when you stop to charge, you aim for 80% full: This is the sweet spot - that 60% in the middle - where EV batteries charge the fastest. With most EVs, charging from 80-100% will take nearly twice as long as charging from 20-80%: It's just how Lithium ion batteries work.
Yes, longer distances and greater inclines will mean longer charging periods. Tesla's charging algorithm wants you to have enough juice to make it to the next charger - and it will constantly adjust its figuring to the amount of charge you receive, traffic and road conditions. You could most likely lengthen some of the short stops in order to shorten the long ones: It's a balancing game and you learn to play it as you become accustomed to your vehicle.
Because there are areas that don't yet have a sufficient number of DC chargers along the highways EV travel is still a bit sketchy - but much less so in a Tesla. Here's the current list of operating Tesla Superchargers in the US - https://www.tesla.com/findus/list/superchargers/United States - remember, though, that Teslas can charge at ANY DC charger, not just their own: Tesla mapping software doesn't include non-Tesla chargers. In some cases it's necessary to plan your route around charger availability. Here's that list in map version: https://supercharge.info/map
This is why some folks don’t find a BEV to be a suitable replacement for an ICE vehicle. It’s a dance we’d rather avoid.
Dan Albrich
Well-Known Member
I did look at the super-charger map provided. It does seem likely that the 5 of 8 stops are likely level 2 chargers and not super-chargers hence the > 20 minute stops. Still, stops that take 70 min, 65 min, 75 min back-to-back in the middle of a long trip and in the remotest parts -- through the desert where almost no services are available would be simply miserable. These out of the way places aren't generally mini marts with a subway sandwich place in the parking lot-- whatever you imagine, most of the rural west is so lacking in population that you're lucky if you can find a toilet with a flush handle. So these aren't places you'd prefer to get out and explore.
People's needs do vary. The likelihood that I'll own a BEV in the next 5-7 years is zero. And I am open to the possibility the situation will improve. I have a few friends and family with BEVs. They all have more money than I do; they each own multiple cars. None of them own only a BEV, they have a gas backup car they use for their trips. And none of them take their BEV's 300+ mile trips. So that is telling to me about how comfortable this is to do. If you can confine your driving to Interstates it becomes more possible but I prefer to avoid interstates (and no, that isn't necessarily slower from point to point).
Anyway, I have no interest in convincing a happy BEV user that they need something else-- good on you. But the converse is also true. PHEV's make much more sense for my use cases. If someone flat out gave me a BEV, I'd sell it, and buy a PHEV.
People's needs do vary. The likelihood that I'll own a BEV in the next 5-7 years is zero. And I am open to the possibility the situation will improve. I have a few friends and family with BEVs. They all have more money than I do; they each own multiple cars. None of them own only a BEV, they have a gas backup car they use for their trips. And none of them take their BEV's 300+ mile trips. So that is telling to me about how comfortable this is to do. If you can confine your driving to Interstates it becomes more possible but I prefer to avoid interstates (and no, that isn't necessarily slower from point to point).
Anyway, I have no interest in convincing a happy BEV user that they need something else-- good on you. But the converse is also true. PHEV's make much more sense for my use cases. If someone flat out gave me a BEV, I'd sell it, and buy a PHEV.
Kerbe
Well-Known Member
If you'll look back at my first response, you'll see that I said, "average": If you look at the actual stats of all EVs over several years, you'll see that the average charging stop is about 20 minutes in length. And, no, the Tesla Supercharger map doesn't include Level 2 EVSEs. As to my not understanding the situation, my state is a "charging desert" for anything except Tesla vehicles: We have one Electrify America location and only half a dozen single or double DCFC installations around the state. I do realize how challenging it will be for certain states to comply with the Federal infrastructure requirements due to the fact of the difficulty of getting electricity to some desert locations - but a combination of solar canopies and battery storage will go a long way toward ameliorating that.
Kerbe
Well-Known Member
It seems to be testosterone-fueled challenge to drive 1200 miles in a day. I make two or three 3K mile round trips by car each year and - as I said - prefer to stop and stretch every 200 miles or so. This is also medically sound: Sitting in the same position for extended lengths of time is not good for your body, nor is the constant sensory onrush of driving good for your stress level. I plan my trips so that the journey is part of the event, not a painful necessity that needs to be overcome: This allows me to actually enjoy driving, no matter what the traffic or weather conditions throw at me. After about 600 miles of driving I'm ready to stop and spend the night in a hotel - so I grab the little overnight bag I've packed just for that purpose (and loaded into the car last so it's easy to grab).
One shorter trip that I make quite frequently is to Atlanta: 440 miles, about 7 hours of driving. Comparing the journey by ICE to the same journey by EV, there's only one additional 14 minute stop: The first (13 min) charging stop is where I usually make a rest stop and the second charging stop (22 min) is where I usually break for lunch. In an ICE vehicle I'd push the final 3-hour leg without a break but stopping to charge for 14 minutes and having a beverage and a walk-around is rather pleasant.
What works for you wouldn't work for me - but we don't all need to do or be the same.
coutinpe
Active Member
Yep! (sigh). Sign of the times...
coutinpe
Active Member
The whole controversy stems from what is available to replace a Clarity. As @Landshark said, there is no comparable alternative. What I was complaining about is the refusal of Honda (and GM, BTW) to build PHEVs based on "some sort of feeling they sense", without any consideration of the (possibly large) potential market PHEVs still may have. This said, whoever believes BEVs is the best solution for "their" problems, more power to them! Just, automakers, don't keep ignoring the rest of us, or we could end up having to go back to gas cars. Or horses... Probably worse for the environment...
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