Spotty regen paddle response

[tim]

In the past few weeks, my regen paddle response has been spotty. Previously, I could pull on the left paddle and get one additional chevron each time. Now, I sometimes pull on the paddle and get no response (no chevrons) even after pulling for twenty times over 10 seconds. However, sometimes the response is as before with one chevron for each pull. And sometimes I can pull twenty times and get one chevron sometimes, e.g., one chevron after five pulls, another after 10 pulls, etc. And sometimes I can only get a max of two chevrons no matter how much I pull.

Is this behavior indicative of a problem?

 

[Landshark]

It could be normal behavior as described in the manual.

1) A fully charged HV battery or a battery that is too hot or too cold.
2) The vehicle traveling above a certain speed while not in Sport mode.
3) The Hybrid system needs protection.

Any of those could explain what you’ve experienced. Or, you may have worn out the paddle.

Is this behavior indicative of a problem?

 

[Kendalf]

Are you able to reproduce this issue consistently? Can you describe the driving behavior when it does occur? As Landshark pointed out, there are a few situations when regen may not function normally, but they are very limited situations.

Try driving at say 40 mph with the battery not completely full and then pull the paddles. If the regen paddle doesn't increase regen then something is indeed the issue and likely something that you'll need to bring into the dealer to address. Of course, the dealer will want you to reproduce the issue so knowing exactly when it occurs would be very helpful.

 

[tim]

Are you able to reproduce this issue consistently? ... Of course, the dealer will want you to reproduce the issue so knowing exactly when it occurs would be very helpful.

Good ideas. I've been frustrated at not being able to easily reason about when the issue would occur. However, I'll take these suggestions and try to find an always repeatable situation. Hopefully, it's just what Landshark pointed out, and I just need to be more aware of those situations.

Thanks!

 

[PHEVDave]

Good ideas. I've been frustrated at not being able to easily reason about when the issue would occur. However, I'll take these suggestions and try to find an always repeatable situation. Hopefully, it's just what Landshark pointed out, and I just need to be more aware of those situations.

Thanks!

My experience has been that you can’t get all of the chevrons until you’ve at least driven it a mile or two after a full charge. There might also be a situation that occurs in colder temperatures. Not sure about that though.

 

[tim]

My experience has been that you can’t get all of the chevrons until you’ve at least driven it a mile or two after a full charge. There might also be a situation that occurs in colder temperatures. Not sure about that though.

The strange thing is that I remember being able to control the chevrons immediately after starting up the car, and I could always get one chevron per pull. Not being able to control the chevrons exactly with a single pull is somewhat dangerous for me because I can't anticipate if pulling the paddle will slow down the car or not, so I end up hitting the foot brake more than usual.

The other strange thing is that the right paddle always subtracts one chevron with each pull, with no exceptions. One other thing, if I switch to sport mode, then the left paddle works as expected, with each pull adding exactly one chevron each time.

I'm still trying to find the situation where I'm not able to get one chevron per pull, but it seems almost random to me.

 

[Landshark]

One other thing, if I switch to sport mode, then the left paddle works as expected, with each pull adding exactly one chevron each time.

Being in Sport mode eliminate the “speed” factor. I don’t know what the high speed limit is for restricting paddle regen. That would narrow it down to a full charged battery or a battery that is either too hot or too cold. Again, the temperature limits are also unknown to me. Or, the Hybrid system needs protection, which would be another unknown set of parameters. The paddle is just a switch, which could be malfunctioning intermittently.

I will add that even 4 chevrons don’t provide significant braking force and the regen is a bit slow to set in. If your goal is to maximize regenerative braking by not using the brake pedal, you may be misled and in believing that using the brake pedal does not recapture kinetic energy. It does. I have a half baked theory that it is all a wash. Using the paddles to bring the car from 60 to 5mph and coming to a complete stop with the brake pedal, or slamming on the brakes to do the same thing, will probably recapture the same amount of energy.

 

[PHEVDave]

Being in Sport mode eliminate the “speed” factor. I don’t know what the high speed limit is for restricting paddle regen. That would narrow it down to a full charged battery or a battery that is either too hot or too cold. Again, the temperature limits are also unknown to me. Or, the Hybrid system needs protection, which would be another unknown set of parameters. The paddle is just a switch, which could be malfunctioning intermittently.

I will add that even 4 chevrons don’t provide significant braking force and the regen is a bit slow to set in. If your goal is to maximize regenerative braking by not using the brake pedal, you may be misled and in believing that using the brake pedal does not recapture kinetic energy. It does. I have a half baked theory that it is all a wash. Using the paddles to bring the car from 60 to 5mph and coming to a complete stop with the brake pedal, or slamming on the brakes to do the same thing, will probably recapture the same amount of energy.

That is an interesting theory but I have a feeling that it probably doesn’t work quite that way. I do agree that using the paddle probably is not much different than gently applying the brakes. But remember that any engagement of the brake pads against the rotors is going to rob some energy from the regenerative braking. So if you think slamming on the brakes will not cause that engagement then maybe you’re right.

 

[insightman]

The POWER/CHARGE Gauge shows more regen taking place when using the brake pedal, but @PHEVDave is correct that any energy the brake pads turn into heat is energy not going into the battery. Maximizing the regen requires planning and ideal circumstances.

I use the left paddle to accomplish as much regen braking as possible. If I'm lucky, the stoplight changes before I need the brake pedal. If I'm coming to a stop sign I supplement the paddle with the pedal as late as possible.

Question: Are there any experienced Clarity PHEV drivers who use the right paddle? I haven't under-estimated the regen braking power of the left paddle in years.

 

[Landshark]

So if you think slamming on the brakes will not cause that engagement then maybe you’re right.

Remember, it’s half baked. And it’s like herding cats to get information from Honda. The examples I gave were extreme. It is unlikely that anyone will ease down from high speed to 5mph using only the paddles, or that a typical driver will wait until the last second to come to a screeching halt. Although, I’d give odds on the latter being more common.

I do not believe, nor did I say, that slamming on the brakes will not engage the friction brakes. The electric motor is capable of providing the same amount of force to stop the car as it does to propel the car. It just isn’t programmed that way on the Clarity. Applying the brake pedal allows the car to recapture more energy than the paddles alone. Doing so may apply the friction brakes, slightly, it also increases the amount of charge on the gauge, in almost all conditions.

I believe the theory would hold true for “normal” moderate driving habits. The brake pedal stroke sensor and pedal feel simulator may trick us into believing that applying the brake pedal would immediately apply the friction brakes in a progressive manner. But we’re programmed to be easily tricked.

 

[Landshark]

Are there any experienced Clarity PHEV drivers who use the right paddle?

I use the right paddle every time I drive the car. 14K miles, probably 11K in EV.

 

[PHEVDave]

Remember, it’s half baked. And it’s like herding cats to get information from Honda. The examples I gave were extreme. It is unlikely that anyone will ease down from high speed to 5mph using only the paddles, or that a typical driver will wait until the last second to come to a screeching halt.

I believe the theory would hold true for “normal” moderate driving ...

I think I would pretty much agree with that. I probably mischaracterized your expression of “slamming” on the brakes.

 

[insightman]

I use the right paddle every time I drive the car. 14K miles, probably 11K in EV.

Of course, the paddles work in both EV and HV. The left paddle--even at 4 chevrons--produces such a mild amount of deceleration. In what situations do you use the right paddle to reduce the amount of regen braking you selected with the left paddle?

 

[Landshark]

I probably mischaracterized your expression of “slamming” on the brakes.

Oh, I did say slamming, which may initially deploy full friction brakes. I suspect not however, as a significant amount of charge is displayed on the gauge when the brake pedal is firmly pressed.

There’s been some debate about losing regen when using the brake pedal vs paddles. There is obviously some, as the paddles never engage the friction brakes. I believe the amount lost is insignificant.

 

[Landshark]

In what situations do you use the right paddle to reduce the amount of regen braking you selected with the left paddle?

Everyday situations.
Coming off a freeway at 65mph and slowing to 40-45mph to be at or near the speed limit for the transition road. Once I approach that speed I’ll toggle back to 1 chevron and press the accelerator just enough to maintain speed.
Same for slowing traffic ahead. Go to 4, as speed slows, toggle to 3, then 2 and 1 to blend in smoothly with traffic at the new speed.
When entered my a small town on a secondary highway. I know they exist in Michigan. Speed limit 55, then 45, then 35, the 25.
Enough?
It’s similar to applying the brakes briefly to scrub off some speed, then releasing the brake pedal. I have seen some people who seem to be either full gas or full brakes. Not my style.

 

[insightman]

It’s similar to applying the brakes briefly to scrub off some speed, then releasing the brake pedal. I have seen some people who seem to be either full gas or full brakes. Not my style.

That makes sense. I just start with 2 chevrons and paddle up until I need the brake pedal.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Question: Are there any experienced Clarity PHEV drivers who use the right paddle?

Very rarely. My M.O. is to go to SPORT and 4 chevrons as soon as I start driving and leave it there. The main time I might use the right paddle is on a very long descent where I’ll paddle back and forth to maintain a desired speed. Though I suppose I could just as easily use cruise control to accomplish that.

As far as paddling down to limit the deceleration rate, can’t you achieve the exact same result using a tiny bit of throttle? That’s what I do the majority of the time.

 

[rodeknyt]

In the past few weeks, my regen paddle response has been spotty. Previously, I could pull on the left paddle and get one additional chevron each time. Now, I sometimes pull on the paddle and get no response (no chevrons) even after pulling for twenty times over 10 seconds. However, sometimes the response is as before with one chevron for each pull. And sometimes I can pull twenty times and get one chevron sometimes, e.g., one chevron after five pulls, another after 10 pulls, etc. And sometimes I can only get a max of two chevrons no matter how much I pull.

Is this behavior indicative of a problem?

When you use the paddle and get no response, do the chevrons blink and then go off? This would indicate that the system is preventing overcharging. If there is no blinking, then you may have a problem that needs a fix.

 

[leop]

I only use the regen paddles to control the speed when going down a long slope. When the slope lessens and the current regen setting is too high, I use the right paddle to reduce the regen braking. I guess I could use the cruise control (works on my 2018 Clarity PHEV) but the paddles work for me.

I use foot pedal braking for all other slowing down. The small amount of pad friction is so slight that hardly any energy goes into heating the brakes until the speed is too slow for regen to brake effectively or more braking is needed than can be provided by the regen. I also like that the brake lights work with all foot pedal braking. Please recall that the traction battery can only take so much input current/power under charging so regen braking is limited (just as acceleration is limited by battery output). Yes, a Tesla has much more regen braking than a Clarity PHEV. However, a Tesla 80 KWH battery is more than four time the capacity of the Clarity PHEV 17 KWH battery. That means that the Tesla battery can absorb four times as much regen power as the Clarity PHEV battery (especially so given Honda's conservative battery limits).

LeoP

 

[Kendalf]

Question: Are there any experienced Clarity PHEV drivers who use the right paddle? I haven't under-estimated the regen braking power of the left paddle in years.

I sometimes use it to reduce regen braking when a car behind me seems a bit impatient and I don't want to piss him/her off.

If there is no one behind me then I enjoy timing it so I nearly come to a stop right at the line with regen only.